Things Coach O is doing better than Les...

[houtiger]

I like a lot of the things that O is doing better than the things we used to complain about Les doing or not doing.

What do you see?

I'll just mention one and let ya'll chip in what you see.

If the team does not have enough talent at a spot, O will try to go out to the graduate transfer market and bring in a guy.

I think his and E's analysis after the spring was that we did not have a quarterback that could deal with the schedule we faced.  They went out and go Joe Burrow, and he has generally been up to the task.  Based on what we saw in the spring game, Burrow should have won the starters job, and he did, and has performed well.

Cole Tracy and Terrance Alexander.

Les seemed like too much of a players coach.  When faced with mediocrity at QB, he stayed with the same guys, hoping they would develop, but they seldom did.  He did bring Mett in, but he should have done more of it.  Les liked his QB, was devoted to them and tried to give them every opportunity to develop.  And Les hurt the performance of the team.  A the end of the day, you have to judge whether that kid CAN develop, or not, to the level required to produce a winning team and I don't think Les and his OC did that.  That's just my opinion, but that's what I think.

[Nutriaitch]

you can count on one hand the number of grad transfer QBs over the last decade or so. 

lets not act like there was an abundance of them available. 

 

my biggest thing is that we kick the ball out of the end zone on kickoffs. 

[Fishhead]

11 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

 

 

my biggest thing is that we kick the ball out of the end zone on kickoffs. 

And if they do get one to return, our kicker takes it from them

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, Fishhead said:

And if they do get one to return, our kicker takes it from them

 

 

that too

[paducahmichael]

I think CLMs biggest failing was his loyalty to his players and his asst coaches. He seemed to place more importance on them than on the team.

 

OTOH, that was also one of his most endearing characteristics. Coach O seems to be a little more creative about finding solutions. CLM always seemed to ask himself, "What would Bo do" - trouble is that Bo was old, old, school. 

[houtiger]

14 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

you can count on one hand the number of grad transfer QBs over the last decade or so. 

lets not act like there was an abundance of them available. 

You're right.  I should have said just "transfers", as there are more, and some with outstanding results, like Cam Newton going to Auburn and bringing them a national championship.  Ole Piss did pretty good getting Chad Kelly.  There have been some good guys out there that we did not pursue, while suffering with subpar QB play under Miles.

[Nutriaitch]

1 minute ago, houtiger said:

You're right.  I should have said just "transfers", as there are more, and some with outstanding results, like Cam Newton going to Auburn and bringing them a national championship.  Ole goldenshower did pretty good getting Chad Kelly.  There have been some good guys out there that we did not pursue, while suffering with subpar QB play under Miles.

 

Mettenberger and Etling

let me know of another coach that has brought in 2 transfer QBs to start as many combined wins as those two over the last 8 years or so.

both were brought in under Les. Etling took over starter spot under Les as well. 

 

 

[houtiger]

25 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

Mettenberger and Etling

let me know of another coach that has brought in 2 transfer QBs to start as many combined wins as those two over the last 8 years or so.

both were brought in under Les. Etling took over starter spot under Les as well. 

Mett was a clear win, but he got in trouble at Ga. and had to find a new home, wanted back into the SEC, and it worked well for both parties.  I don't recall that Les was out looking for a QB, more a case of Mett called Les looking for a new team.

Etling was from the same home town as Cam Cameron, again, Etling was looking for a team and called his friend.  Les started Brandon Harris the first two games of his last season and he did not get the job done, then he switched to Etling, because he HAD to try something different.  The fans were already outraged.  That is a condemnation of Les, and a big reason why he was fired.  Could they not tell in practice that Etling was the better QB?  Of course they had not changed the offense as they promised Alleva that they would.  At the end of the day, Etling was a buddy buddy deal with Cameron.  He was a good QB, better than Harris (who ended his career at UNC on the bench after being given playing time there), but he didn't transform the team.  We beat the teams we should have, and lost to the teams we were expected to lose to.  Les was not out looking for the best QB he could find, he took a good QB that lost the starters job at Purdue and LSU needed some depth, and he was a friend of Cam Cameron.  Les would take a deal that fell in his lap but I didn't see him out there aggressively looking for players that could come in and improve the team.

So far, I see O as more aggressive.  He knows the positions that are weak and goes out specifically to upgrade certain spots that are required to make the team perform better.

[Hatchertiger]

16 minutes ago, houtiger said:

  Of course they had not changed the offense as they promised Alleva that they would. 

That's what ultimately got Les fired. If your boss tells you to do something you really have two options: 1. do what he tells you; or 2. tell him you are unwilling to do it and move on.  Maybe in Les' mind he "thought" he had changed the offense but I remember how frustrating that Wisconsin game was.  Les Miles did a lot for LSU, he brought home 2 SEC championships, one national championship and played for another.  After 2011 Saban got the memo and modernized his office, Les never got that memo,  had he, he might still be our coach.

[Nutriaitch]

so let me get this straight. 

you complained that Les didn’t get transfer QB’s. 

I point out that your statement is factually inaccurate. 

Transfer QBs brought in by Les make up 62% of our starts from 2012-2017.  Would be 65% had Met not missed last couple games due to injury.  Which i would venture to guess is more than any other coach over the same time period.

and you respond by saying “those don’t count”?

really?

Mett was a highly recruited 4 star when we landed him. Inbred Gumps pursued him. So did QB guru Bobby Petrino. 

Les landed him. Beating those guys out for a QB is definitely NOT the same as him falling into our lap as you insinuate.

but somehow, he doesn’t count.  

we had next to zero competition for Burrow. It was between us and Cincy.  that’s it. 

 

[Nutriaitch]

also, glad you brought up Harris transferring. 

because he’s a lot more typical of what’s available in the transfer QB market than Burrow or Mettenberger. 

wasnt good at LSU. wasn’t good at UNC. 

 

[houtiger]

Mett was a clear win, I have said that.  You don't mention Etling, who was brought in to provide depth, not to replace Harris.  Etling was good, gave his all for LSU, and we appreciate him.  But he was not going to transform the team to championship caliber.

Burrow was not just between LSU and Cincy, Joe cancelled a visit to UNC.  Burrow made his decision quickly, but if he had looked longer I think he would have had other options, Nebraska, Fla., UCLA were mentioned as possible destinations.  At Fla. he would have had to compete with Franks, not clear he would have won the starters job.  O and E evaluated their QB's and I am sure told Burrow they would give him a fair shot to start.  He could look at the tape of the spring game and see he had a good shot to win the job.  Then they had to convince him they would change the offense, and there was enough of a team around him that they could succeed.  It was a very good setup for Joe, and he cancelled his trip to UNC and took the deal.  It is working out well for him and LSU.  Good on O and E.  They were not looking for depth, they were looking for an upgrade, and they got it.

[Nutriaitch]

you don’t have to defend the Burrow pick up. i’ve agreed from beginning it was a great move. 

my argument has been that those type of guys aren’t available very often. 

so you can’t really knock Les (or any other coach) for NOT getting something that isn’t even there.

i mean you can’t recruit anyone who is on somebody else’s roster. They have to actually announce they are leaving first.  

why do the majority of players leave one school for another? because they weren’t good enough at their old school.

how many schools are so deep at QB that a backup is capable of not just starting, but carrying another team?  a very, very, very small amount.

so the list of QBs that do transfer contain a lot more Brandon Harris level guys than they do Joe Burrow level guys. 

 

[Nutriaitch]

25 minutes ago, houtiger said:

he was not going to transform the team to championship caliber.

here is a complete list of every QB transfer to ever play in a National Champioship game (1998-now because i’m too lazy to go back farther). 

Cam Newton

Jake Coker

 

 

[houtiger]

4 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

here is a complete list of every QB transfer to ever play in a National Champioship game (1998-now because i’m too lazy to go back farther). 

Cam Newton, Jake Coker

you don't just have to look at nat. champ QB's, I would like to win an SEC West championship.

Cam signed with Auburn out of JC and LSU could have gone after him, Auburn and Miss. State did.  But we sat pat with Jordan Jefferson.  We had some success with Jefferson, but much of that was TEAM success and not attributable to Jefferson.  2011 had one of the best defenses I ever saw at LSU, and Jarrett Lee won most of the games in 2011 as starter, until he blew up against Inbred Gumps.  As a fan base, we lamented the lack of efficiency at QB, and that was so clearly demonstrated in the game that shall not be mentioned.  The question is, was JJ the best QB available during his tenure, or were there top transfers that were better than JJ, but Les did not court them.  I never heard of him courting a transfer in those days, and clearly Cam was much better in 2010, then left for the NFL after 1 yr. at Auburn.

O and E evaluated the position after spring and decided to do something.  Burrow probably exceeds most expectations for a transfer, but if you don't look, you can't find anything.

The rules on transfers have only recently loosened up.  In decades past, players were mostly handcuffed to the university and transfers were rare.  

[Nutriaitch]

18 minutes ago, houtiger said:

you don't just have to look at nat. champ QB's, I would like to win an SEC West championship.

Cam signed with Auburn out of JC and LSU could have gone after him, Auburn and Miss. State did.  But we sat pat with Jordan Jefferson.  We had some success with Jefferson, but much of that was TEAM success and not attributable to Jefferson.  2011 had one of the best defenses I ever saw at LSU, and Jarrett Lee won most of the games in 2011 as starter, until he blew up against Inbred Gumps.  As a fan base, we lamented the lack of efficiency at QB, and that was so clearly demonstrated in the game that shall not be mentioned.  The question is, was JJ the best QB available during his tenure, or were there top transfers that were better than JJ, but Les did not court them.  I never heard of him courting a transfer in those days, and clearly Cam was much better in 2010, then left for the NFL after 1 yr. at Auburn.

O and E evaluated the position after spring and decided to do something.  Burrow probably exceeds most expectations for a transfer, but if you don't look, you can't find anything.

The rules on transfers have only recently loosened up.  In decades past, players were mostly handcuffed to the university and transfers were rare.  

ok, i’ll try to do this in simpler terms for you. 

please name a Transfer QB from the last 10 years that was so damn good he was the missing piece. 

Cam Newton is one. and personally i’m glad we didn’t spend the $180,000 he signed for. Because we likely don’t get away with it like Auburn did. 

go ahead, name another transfer QB that would have won anything more at LSU since 2008.  Should be easy as hell to do the way you’re talking.

i’ll even be nice and let you use Baker Mayfield and all the hindsight in the world if you want. But just remember, Mayfield was a walk-on with NO offers from major programs. So we ain’t the only school to miss on him. 

who else?

Jake Coker? he’s not by any stretch the reason Inbred Gumps won. 

and if Chad Kelly is your guy, then not sure how serious i can take you on this debate.

 

[houtiger]

Then you have Kyler Murray at Oklahoma right now, former 5* from A&M.  Stidham turned in a good year for Auburn last year.

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-football/news/best-transfer-quarterbacks-all-time-troy-aikman-baker-mayfield-russell-wilson-jeff-george-ryan-mallett/147jovie14j7s12oxg0hpj8ofa

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2018/05/22/10-college-quarterback-transfers-had-great-success-new-team/629262002/

You may not win a championship of any kind with these guys, or you might.  The question you seem to miss is not "will the guy win a championship for me", the reason you go look for those guys is your assessment that one of those guys is BETTER, potentially, than anyone on my squad right now.  You are looking to improve you team.  I didn't see Les always doing all he could.  He was so devoted to his current players that he stood pat, usually, thinking they would develop, and at QB, usually they did not.

[Nutriaitch]

Kyler Murray was not allowed to transfer to an SEC school or any future A&M opponent.

O was LSU’s head coach when Stidham transferred. 

so still waiting to see who this magic QB transfer Les missed on. 

Les also went out and got Bolden from Penn St. 

but like most transfers, turns out the reason he lost the gig at Ped St is because he sucked.  Transferred from LSU to a smaller school and still wasn’t able to cut it. 

so Hatch, Mett, Etling all started at least one game under Miles. Plus the Bolden transfer. 

that’s 4 he brought it. just because none of them won a title, doesn’t mean Les didn’t TRY to get one. 

 

 

[Nutriaitch]

oh and also on the Kyler Murray discussion

he transferred after the 2015 season.

Brandon Harris had a better year that year than Murray did.  in the same division. despite playing in a much more QB friendly system. 

Harris attempted 150 more passes than Murray, yet Murray threw 3x’s as many picks as harris did.

so let’s not revise history and act like it would have been a no-brainer to get him if he were even available to us. 

Harris was also highly recruited. 4 star with offers from everybody in the SEC west  

 

[houtiger]

14 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

Kyler Murray was not allowed to transfer to an SEC school or any future A&M opponent.

O was LSU’s head coach when Stidham transferred. 

so still waiting to see who this magic QB transfer Les missed on. 

Les also went out and got Bolden from Penn St. 

but like most transfers, turns out the reason he lost the gig at Ped St is because he sucked.  Transferred from LSU to a smaller school and still wasn’t able to cut it. 

so Hatch, Mett, Etling all started at least one game under Miles. Plus the Bolden transfer. 

that’s 4 he brought it. just because none of them won a title, doesn’t mean Les didn’t TRY to get one. 

In most cases, Les was trying to get some depth because of his persistent failure to recruit top QB candidates to LSU, and I have long contended that the top high school kids didn't want to come to LSU because of the offense Les ran, and the OC's they would play for.  Where are Crowton, Stud, and Cameron today?

Hatch got to play because he was a soph and Jarrett Lee and Jefferson were true frosh.  Hatch led LSU to wins over App St., Troy, and N. Texas, got hurt then gave way to Lee and Jefferson as LSU stumbled to a 7 - 5 record and ended the season unranked.  There is trying, then there is succeeding, and bringing in a kid not just to take up a spot and provide depth, but to IMPROVE the team.  Clearly Hatch nor Bolden did that.

Mett was not brought in to contend for a starting job, Les had already decided to go with Jefferson/Lee, and Mett would have a chance to win the job after they left.  I remember the spring game Metts first spring in town, and I saw him make a throw that neither Lee nor Jefferson could make.  That year, I kept wanting to see what Mett could do, but Les never played him.  Mett was good the two years he started, but if he had been given the opportunity to play in 2011 and had 12 games of experience under his belt, the game that shall not be mentioned may have turned out different.  We'll never know, but I think Les gave too much credence to seniority.

I think Etling was brought in for depth.  In 2016, Les trotted out Harris as starter for 2 games despite what the coaches were seeing in practice, and Harris didn't get the job done.  He was failing miserably.  Only then did Les put Etling in, but with the same old offense, even that was not enough to save Les's job.

The difference between Mett and the others is that Mett came in on the tail end of Jefferson/Lee and would have a fair chance to win the starters job where nobody had a built in advantage with the coaches.  I think the others were just brought in for depth.

O brought in Burrow because he assessed, with E, that they didn't have the talent to win with in McMillan, Narcisse, and Brennan.  Based on what I saw in the spring game, O was correct.  When Burrow became available, they assessed that he could improve the team, they gave him a fair chance with win the job on the fall camp field, he did, and we are where we are.  

I like the way O is handling his QB situation much better than the way Les handled his.  

[Nutriaitch]

to sum up that wall of text:

you still can’t name a QB transfer worth a damn other than the one that was a 2 year starter at LSU, the school that you claim didn’t get transfers like they should have.

and what makes you so sure we would have even been IN that game with Mett at QB in 2011? 2012 Mett was nowhere near what 2013 Mett was.

Lee threw more TDs and fewer pics in 2011 than Mett did in 2012.

 

[houtiger]

22 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

to sum up that wall of text:

you still can’t name a QB transfer worth a damn other than the one that was a 2 year starter at LSU, the school that you claim didn’t get transfers like they should have.

and what makes you so sure we would have even been IN that game with Mett at QB in 2011? 2012 Mett was nowhere near what 2013 Mett was.

Lee threw more TDs and fewer pics in 2011 than Mett did in 2012.

You can consider Mett as "not a transfer", but a high school recruit.  He went to Ga., never played a down, got in trouble, dismissed, and went to a JC for a year due to his trouble.  He was basically a high school recruit with 3 years of eligibility.  He was not brought in to win the starting job immediately, but he had to look at it as Jefferson/Lee were both leaving after a year and he had a very good chance to win the starters job at LSU (perhaps why he chose not to select another school). 

I don't know if we would have been in the championship game in 2011 with sophomore Mett as QB, nobody knows what would have happened.  I know that after Mett's first spring game, I declared he had the best arm on the team.   Given the head case Lee became against Inbred Gumps, can you definitively say Lee should have started all year, or that Mett should never have been given a snap?  And given that JJ was not really a world beater after taking over the QB spot in the Inbred Gumps game, that Mett didn't deserve playing time.  I thought all year that Mett should have been given playing time and he was not.  Can you honestly say that in the Jan. 9th game, JJ was a better choice at QB than Mett?  Can you say that Les should not have sat JJ and tried something else.  Why not Lee (well there was probably some good reason why not, we just don't know it)?  Why not Mett, who had a great arm he showed in the previous spring game, well Les never played him a down, never prepped Mett AT ALL, so Les took that option away from himself, and another reason I'm glad he's gone, and why nobody else has hired him.   Yes, if you don't put your backup into the game and get him reps, when you need him he will look inexperienced, that is self evident.  I think Brennan should have been played some already this year, in case of an injury to Burrow in a game we HAVE to win, I would rather see Brennan go in with some game reps under his belt, than none.  You can still work his redshirt out.  But that is a different topic.

But at the end of the day, Mett's coming to LSU was a lot more like a high school recruitment that a transfer of an upper classman intended to improve the team immediately.  Les never brought in a transfer QB to try and improve the team immediately.  Other teams did, and they enjoyed success in many cases going that route.

O brought in an upper classman to improve the team immediately, gave him a fair chance, Joe won the job fair and square as near as I can tell, and LSU is enjoying the result of that action.

[Nutriaitch]

well, you just eliminated Cam Newton from the transfer group as well then. 

because he took the same path to Auburn. 

so i ask you again. 

name a true transfer QB between 2008 and 2016 that had an immediate Joe Burrow like impact on his new team.

you just eliminated Juco guys with your previous post. 

also, remember non-grads have to sit out a year, so they’re also eliminated because they’re not “brought in to win the starting job immediately” to use an exact phrase from your post.

 

go ahead, name one.

there is one for sure who meets the above criteria. i’ll still give you credit if you name him, but i can give a legit reason why he wasn’t even contacted by LSU. 

 

[houtiger]

3 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

so i ask you again. 

name a true transfer QB between 2008 and 2016 that had an immediate Joe Burrow like impact on his new team.

you just eliminated Juco guys with your previous post. 

Incorrect.  I did not eliminate JUCO.  I said that Mett was a different case as he came to LSU with 3 years of eligibility.  He didn't have to sit out a year, Les sat him for a year.

Cam went to Auburn and he WAS given the opportunity to win the starting job immediately and he did, and went ahead and won the nat. championship.  Cam played a little his freshman year at Fla., sat out the next year injured, played a year at Blinn College after getting in legal trouble at Fla., then went to Auburn as a Jr. and won it all, going pro after his Jr. year.  So, he was an upper classman when he went to Auburn, and he won the starting job immediately.  That is not the situation with Mett at all. 

[Nutriaitch]

ok, keep Cam. 

so 1 guy in 10 years?

where is this plethora of available “team transforming” transfer QBs that Les didn’t get?

and still not sure why Auburn can count a 4* signed from a Juco after he got in legal trouble at an SEC school, but LSU can’t count a 4* signed from a Juco after he got in trouble at an SEC school.