It's a Tiger Thing Nick

[Hatchertiger]

Thus far, InbredGumps have lost 3 games in 2019 to the: (1) Clemson Tigers; (2) LSU "Real" Tigers; and (3) Auburn Tigers.  Not taking anything away from his success but I do believe college football is catching up with him. InbredGumps dominated because they had significantly more fire power than other teams.  That is one thing coach O gets credit for, he understood we needed to beef up the offensive and defensive lines to compete with them!  And that plays to one of his strengths: recruiting.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Hatchertiger

[Herb]

Eff little nicky.

Let's put him in our rear view mirror for good.

[Nutriaitch]

 

23 hours ago, Hatchertiger said:

That is one thing coach O gets credit for, he understood we needed to beef up the offensive and defensive lines to compete with them!  And that plays to one of his strengths: recruiting.

 

Actually, it’s scheme.  
We argued about it here last year, but personnel was not (nor has it ever been) the issue.

nearly identical personnel this year as last year, but with a completely different result. 

here is the ENTIRE list of  players on O-Line who took at least one that was different from ‘18-‘19 Alabama games:

Ed Ingram played (did not start) instead of Garrett Brumfield (started).

 

[Hatchertiger]

O has been beefing up the D-line since he took over. That is really where InbredGumps was hurting us when we were run first. Now that we have the spread that is less of an issue.

[Nutriaitch]

20 minutes ago, Hatchertiger said:

O has been beefing up the D-line since he took over. That is really where InbredGumps was hurting us when we were run first. Now that we have the spread that is less of an issue.

only difference in D-Line from last year to this year 

Shelvin instead of Alexander. 
Ika got snaps this year. 

i repeat it has NEVER been a personnel issue. 

[Nutriaitch]

note: this is not a reference to anything in the future as i am aware we have more personnel incoming. 

those incoming reinforcements haven’t played yet, therefore cannot be credited for the difference just yet.  

this is simply to (hopefully) dispel the myth that we have been “outmanned” prior to now. 

[Hatchertiger]

 It's actually 3 things, recruiting bigger and stronger lineman, an exception QB and a new offense:

Quote

It’s LSU coach Ed Orgeron’s succinct and accurate description of why he believes his football program is positioned to break Alabama’s eight-game win streak over the Tigers when the No. 1 teams in the AP and Coaches polls tangle in Tuscaloosa Saturday afternoon.

“I do believe we’re well equipped to compete with these guys,” Orgeron said at his Monday press conference.

Even better, Orgeron has had a clear grasp from day one on the job what it will take to beat the Crimson Tide, who has won 31 straight home games including one of three losses suffered by Orgeron as LSU’s coach.

First, recruit as many big, strong and fast linemen on both sides of the ball as Alabama has.

“I do believe we’re closer,” Orgeron said. “I do believe we have made up the ground, we’ll find out on Saturday.”

Second, acquire a competitive, playmaking hard-nosed quarterback like legitimate Heisman Trophy candidate Joe Burrow who hates losing and chases perfection.

“I’m not going to say he’s a single most important recruit in LSU history, but he’s one of the top five for sure,” Orgeron said of Burrow, who ranks second nationally in passing yards, passing yards per game, passing TDs and points responsible for. “Joe is the reason we’re able to have the success we’re having on offense with the spread offense because he’s leader on the field, he’s a quarterback on the field.”

Third, ditch the old LSU I-based run offense that Alabama didn’t even have to scout to stop and replace it with a hybrid spread/RPO concept installed by 30-year-old passing game coordinator Joe Brady in which quarterbacks and receivers adjust routes after the ball is snapped. Make Alabama’s defense actually guess at what’s coming next from a group of LSU playmakers spread from sideline to sideline.

 

https://www.tigerrag.com/tigers-finally-have-all-the-pieces-to-beat-alabama/

[Nutriaitch]

13 minutes ago, Hatchertiger said:

 It's actually 3 things, recruiting bigger and stronger lineman, an exception QB and a new offense:

https://www.tigerrag.com/tigers-finally-have-all-the-pieces-to-beat-alabama/

 

stick with me

exactly ZERO lineman who played this year were not on the roster last year. With Ed Ingram being somewhat of an exception as he was not eligible for last year’s game.

therefore, by definition, the difference between last year and this year is not personnel. 

the QB, leading rusher, top 2 WR, and 4 of the 5 starting OL from this season also started in the exact same position for last year’s game.

 

 

[Nutriaitch]

15 minutes ago, Hatchertiger said:

 It's actually 3 things, recruiting bigger and stronger lineman, an exception QB and a new offense:

https://www.tigerrag.com/tigers-finally-have-all-the-pieces-to-beat-alabama/

as said before the recruiting everyone is pointing to WILL (or at least should) have an effect going forward. 

but as of today,

Tyrion David-Price is the only human being to contribute offensively in the 2019 Alabama game that was not already on the roster when the 2018 Alabama game happened. 

 

a whopping ONE new recruit competed in this game on the offensive side of the ball. 

ONE.

he contributed a total of 10 yards. 

 

recruiting was not the difference between those two games. 

[Hatchertiger]

Doesn't really matter to me how we got here, whatever Coach O's plan was over the last 3 years  ...  it worked. We're undefeated.  Happy he has shut up all of his detractors who have been proven wrong.  There were so many "internet hero coaches" out there who predicted he would be an abject failure and really made fun of the guy ... that you don't hear from anymore

[dachsie]

55 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

 

stick with me

exactly ZERO lineman who played this year were not on the roster last year. With Ed Ingram being somewhat of an exception as he was not eligible for last year’s game.

therefore, by definition, the difference between last year and this year is not personnel. 

the QB, leading rusher, top 2 WR, and 4 of the 5 starting OL from this season also started in the exact same position for last year’s game.

 

 

Shouldn't you also credit experience and development in that tho?

[Nutriaitch]

11 minutes ago, Hatchertiger said:

Doesn't really matter to me how we got here, whatever Coach O's plan was over the last 3 years  ...  it worked. We're undefeated.  Happy he has shut up all of his detractors who have been proven wrong.  There were so many "internet hero coaches" out there who predicted he would be an abject failure and really made fun of the guy ... that you don't hear from anymore

 

at the risk of being labeled a nega-O , i want to see this for more than one year before proclaiming this to be the new normal. 

[Nutriaitch]

1 minute ago, dachsie said:

Shouldn't you also credit experience and development in that tho?

experience and development is absolutely a part of it. no doubt. 

but one year of it alone does not produce this drastic of a change. 

 

[houtiger]

5 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

experience and development is absolutely a part of it. no doubt. 

but one year of it alone does not produce this drastic of a change.

The talent gap is not measured by one team, a talent gap depends on what happens between 2 teams, who InbredGumps lost and who they were replacing them with.  InbredGumps had whipped us in recruiting for several years, then they whipped us on the field over that timeframe.  You could see that our o-line could not move those InbredGumps d-line out, not even for Fournette who finished with 19 yards one year.  Now, part of that was scheme, we had no creditable passing attack to loosen up their D.  But we could run roughshod over everyone else (mostly) and not do crap against InbredGumps, it was not just the scheme, we were physically outmatched.

I predicted this team to go 11-1, and was very excited about the season because I could see the talent coming back and I thought many would develop and get better.  I had high hopes for JaMarr Chase, who I really liked as a freshman.  He progressed more than I thought.  The whole receiving corp, no problem with drops this year.  Same o-line, year of strength and development, better result.  O has recruited quality depth, and now when a guy is injured for a couple of weeks, even going into a high ranked opponent, we have a quality backup to put in the game.  Rotating McGee and Ingram, what a luxury.  Shelvin and Ika.  Heck, we're 6 deep on the d-line without much dropoff.

The change in the offense has been a revolution, but you still have to get a guy to drive the car, and O went and got Burrow.  Upgrade at the position, Narcisse and McMillan both transfer out, huge upgrade in personnel, needed upgrade.

Quote

It's easier to win five national titles when you have 22 first-rounders since the 2008 draft. LSU, which is always being compared to Alabama, is still 11 behind Alabama in first-round picks in the past 10 years.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/23316209/college-programs-most-nfl-draft-picks-last-10-years

We put about the same number of guys into the pros as InbredGumps, but they had a distinct quality edge over us.

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, houtiger said:

The talent gap is not measured by one team, a talent gap depends on what happens between 2 teams, who InbredGumps lost and who they were replacing them with.  InbredGumps had whipped us in recruiting for several years, then they whipped us on the field over that timeframe.  You could see that our o-line could not move those InbredGumps d-line out, not even for Fournette who finished with 19 yards one year.  Now, part of that was scheme, we had no creditable passing attack to loosen up their D.  But we could run roughshod over everyone else (mostly) and not do crap against InbredGumps, it was not just the scheme, we were physically outmatched.

I predicted this team to go 11-1, and was very excited about the season because I could see the talent coming back and I thought many would develop and get better.  I had high hopes for JaMarr Chase, who I really liked as a freshman.  He progressed more than I thought.  The whole receiving corp, no problem with drops this year.  Same o-line, year of strength and development, better result.  O has recruited quality depth, and now when a guy is injured for a couple of weeks, even going into a high ranked opponent, we have a quality backup to put in the game.  Rotating McGee and Ingram, what a luxury.  Shelvin and Ika.  Heck, we're 6 deep on the d-line without much dropoff.

The change in the offense has been a revolution, but you still have to get a guy to drive the car, and O went and got Burrow.  Upgrade at the position, Narcisse and McMillan both transfer out, huge upgrade in personnel, needed upgrade.

We put about the same number of guys into the pros as InbredGumps, but they had a distinct quality edge over us.

ok. i’ll explain it to you slowly. 

Last year LSU got beat 29-0 by Alabama.  The offense in that game was absolutely dreadful. Pathetic. Horrendous. 

I was told by people on this very site that “we do not have the athletes to compete with Alabama”. 

I argued that it was scheme and not personnel.   

Some here are still saying we recruited the difference between last’s game vs Tide as opposed to this year’s game against them. 

So i present to you the ENTIRE list of people that stepped foot on the field for even a single offensive snap that was recruited after the 2018 Alabama game. 

Tyrion Davis-Price

 

That’s it.  
That’s the whole list. 

i know present players that started both games offensively

LT- Saahdiq Charles
C- Lloyd Cushenberry
RG- Damien Lewis
RT- Austin Deculus
WR- Justin Jefferson
WR- Ja’Maar Chase
QB- Joe Burrow

And guys that got significant playing time (not starts) in both games

LG- Adrian Magee
RG- Traore
WR- Terrace Marshall Jr
RB- Clyde Edwards-Helaire

 

that is literally the EXACT SAME HUMAN beings that “weren’t good enough athletes to compete with Alabama” last year. 

Know what changed?  the scheme. 

[Herb]

What is the list of players on Alabama's side that changed?  Your premise is that the opponents remained static as well.

Alabama's defense was better last year by all accounts and Tua was not coming off of ankle surgery, as I recall.

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, Herb said:

What is the list of players on Alabama's side that changed?  Your premise is that the opponents remained static as well.

Alabama's defense was better last year by all accounts and Tua was not coming off of ankle surgery, as I recall.

no, my premise is that anyone who says recruiting is the difference between last year and this year is not being honest.
because this is almost across the board the same cast of characters on the offensive side of the ball.

And i mean this overall not just the Alabama game. That game is just the most glaring example.
 

[Hatchertiger]

Simply saying its scheme only is a bit myopic. Our players aren't static either from year to year.  Coach O and his staff have obviously worked on developing our players over the last 3 years including from last year to this year. And even if we have essentially the same players, nobody can deny ("for he's a jolly good fellow"   I digress) that our offensive line is better, certainly in pass blocking, than last year.  That's coaching and I give Coach O credit for recognizing that was an issue and addressing it.  The scheme is great and certainly plays its role.  How did we get that scheme?  Coach O and his OC recognized we needed to get to the spread etc. for the team to progress.  They went out and found a coach that most coaches had not even heard of and NOBODY else wanted to hire.   So credit to Coach O for bringing in what is perhaps the most dynamic offense in the country.

[houtiger]

We kept most of our players, I think 15 of 22 starters returned, and they all got better.

InbredGumps lost a lot to the draft, and in most cases, the kids that stepped up to replace them were not as good..

You had Quinnen Williams (dt) at #3, and Jonah Williams (ot) at #7, Josh Jacobs (rb) at #24, Irv Smith (te) at #50, Damien Harris (rb) at #87, Christian Miller (lb) at #115, Deonte Thompson (s) at #137, Ross Pierschbacher (g) at #153,  and Mack Wilson (lb) at #155, Isaiah Buggs (dt) at #192.

LSU lost 3 to the draft, Devin White, Gready Williams, and Foster Moreau.  We didn't quite replace Devin, one can argue we upgraded at corner, and broke even at TE.

InbredGumps also lost Dylan Moses at LB for the year, and he was the returning star on the defense.

The InbredGumps team we played in 2019 is NOT nearly the team that beat us 29-0 in 2018.

We got better, had 15 starters return, and they lost a ton of NFL talent and slipped a bit in level of execution.

Our scheme is better on offense, and I am sure we all enjoyed that.  But it's not the only reason for the one year turn around.

 

[LSUDad]

I have to agree with much of all this, a couple things. Moss seems to get left out of this talk. He has turned out as one of the top TE’s in the nation. His all round game improved the position. You know Steve wanted to use the position more. But Moss with his catching, blocking, route running, has taken it to a next level. 
It has also been brought up about Magee, no one has taken his place fully, he has kicked out to the OLT position, manning it, while Charles has had to sit games. Moffitt has him making a deadlift of over 600 lbs. 

 

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/lsu-football/watch-lsu-offensive-lineman-adrian-magee-deadlifts-more-than-600-pounds/amp/

 

I believe Shelvin and Apu have handled the nose position well, we had nothing like that last year. 
 

To add, Burrow had a little problem last year...

https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/sports/lsu/article_4c4e8946-00bd-11ea-a2b3-afe42b878e23.html

 

So yes, the offense and defense, players, and a few other things have changed. A year of experience under their belts, bigger and stronger. The addition of a few key players. The addition of a coach. All key parts has this team at 12-0. 
 

We are not lining up with 8 in the box, taking the best running back in the nation, running into a brick wall. Too much has changed in a few short months. A staff and players had to believe in a coach that had a vision. “We coming!”

Many folks wanted a change, when the call was made, we were changing, some didn’t believe, some were afraid we would lose our identity. We wouldn’t be physical anymore. Who wants to go back to what we were? 
 

Instead of going back and forth on where we are, how we got here, be happy we are where we’re at. These are the Golden Years of Tiger Football. 
 

I know this, I don’t want this season to end. What will we have next year? Don’t know, but I know we won’t be lining up and running into that MF Brick Wall! I know this, if we have to play a team twice, they won’t see the same $hit the second game. If something is not working, that play, formation, etc., will not continue to be used over and over again. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Herb]

BTW...love this discussion!

[Hatchertiger]

And getting Ed Ingram back certainly helped the o-line.

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, Hatchertiger said:

Simply saying its scheme only is a bit myopic. Our players aren't static either from year to year.  Coach O and his staff have obviously worked on developing our players over the last 3 years including from last year to this year. And even if we have essentially the same players, nobody can deny ("for he's a jolly good fellow"   I digress) that our offensive line is better, certainly in pass blocking, than last year.  That's coaching and I give Coach O credit for recognizing that was an issue and addressing it.  The scheme is great and certainly plays its role.  How did we get that scheme?  Coach O and his OC recognized we needed to get to the spread etc. for the team to progress.  They went out and found a coach that most coaches had not even heard of and NOBODY else wanted to hire.   So credit to Coach O for bringing in what is perhaps the most dynamic offense in the country.

I'm not saying it is only scheme. I am of the opinion that scheme is a very, very large portion of the puzzle though.

What I am saying is that this transformation from last year to this year is NOT recruiting because none of the major players are new recruits.
That literally was my only stance.

Now some of this is obviously the guys being a year older with more experience.
Some of it is also another year of coaching/developing.

And the rest is that we now have a scheme that plays to these kids abilities. ESPECIALLY on the O-Line.

A. our guys almost never get into a 3 point stance this year (big change from last year). This gets them in pass block position a lot quicker. 
B. the quickness that Burrow releases it this year compared to last year is absolutely remarkable. Some you obviously attribute to Burrow himself and his improvement through study and hard work.  But also we no longer run that 1994 Play-Action 7 step drop anymore.  Those really slow developing plays no longer exist for us.

 

1 hour ago, houtiger said:

We kept most of our players

that was literally my exact point.
thanks. 

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, houtiger said:

LSU lost 3 to the draft, Devin White, Gready Williams, and Foster Moreau.  We didn't quite replace Devin, one can argue we upgraded at corner, and broke even at TE.

 

Not a popular opinion, but I think Phillips is a LOT closer to Devin White than he's being given credit.

Fulton was better than Greedy last year. Now that he's healthy again, he's still better. Stingley at worst is on par with Greedy.

Thad Moss is about 17 times better than Foster Moreau. 

[LSUDad]

Wait, keeping most of our players, adding the best True Freshman CB in the Nation. He also handling punt returns, who handled this last year? 
 

The addition of Apu, the transformation of Shelvin. 

The return of Ingram. 
 

Everything has added to the Tiger Transformation. Joe getting more time in, remember, last year, he didn’t have a Spring. Marshal had an injury from high school that carried over. Chase is light years from where he was in 2018. If Chase was able to come out this year, he’d be the first WR taken in the draft.