Coronavirus (non-sports related)

[Herb]

5 minutes ago, LSUDad said:

https://www.westernjournal.com/cdc-tells-hospitals-list-covid-cause-death-even-just-assuming-contributed/

 

Quote

Editorially, The Western Journal upholds traditional Christian values as articulated in the Bible. These values include beliefs in original sin, the fallen nature of man, the exclusivity of Christ, the need for government to restrain men from injuring each other, the fundamental value of every human life — including the unborn, a rejection of racism in all forms and the definition of marriage as between one man and one woman. Politically, The Western Journal advocates for broadly conservative positions on most issues, including abortion, national defense, small government, gay marriage, tax policy and individual freedom.

Rather than be objective, this skews to the extreme Christian right and would not be considered unbiased in any litmus test. Additionally, the article you cited is clearly labeled as an opinion piece at the top of the page and should not be considered "news".

If you'd like to read what the ACTUAL CDC guidelines state, you can find them here:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

 

Quote

When reporting cause of death on a death certificate, use any information available, such as medical history, medical records, laboratory tests, an autopsy report, or other sources of relevant information. Similar to many other diagnoses, a cause-of-death statement is an informed medical opinion that should be based on sound medical judgment drawn from clinical training and experience, as well as knowledge of current disease states and local trends (6). Part I This section on the death certificate is for reporting the sequence of conditions that led directly to death. The immediate cause of death, which is the disease or condition that directly preceded death and is not necessarily the underlying cause of death (UCOD), should be reported on line a. The conditions that led to the immediate cause of death should be reported in a logical sequence in terms of time and etiology below it. The UCOD, which is “(a) the disease or injury which initiated the train of morbid events leading directly to death or (b) the circumstances of the accident or violence which produced the fatal injury” (7), should be reported on the lowest line used in Part I.

It goes on to say...

Quote

Certifying deaths due to COVID–19 If COVID–19 played a role in the death, this condition should be specified on the death certificate. In many cases, it is likely that it will be the UCOD, as it can lead to various lifethreatening conditions, such as pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). In these cases, COVID–19 should be reported on the lowest line used in Part I with the other conditions to which it gave rise listed on the lines above it. Generally, it is best to avoid abbreviations and acronyms, but COVID–19 is unambiguous, so it is acceptable to report on the death certificate. In some cases, survival from COVID–19 can be complicated by pre-existing chronic conditions, especially those that result in diminished lung capacity, such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) or asthma. These medical conditions do not cause COVID–19, but can increase the risk of contracting a respiratory infection and death, so these conditions should be reported in Part II and not in Part I. When determining whether COVID–19 played a role in the cause of death, follow the CDC clinical criteria for evaluating a person under investigation for COVID–19 and, where possible, conduct appropriate laboratory testing using guidance provided by CDC or local health authorities. More information on CDC recommendations for reporting, testing, and specimen collection, including postmortem testing, is available from: https://www. cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nCoV/hcp/clinical-criteria.html and https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/guidancepostmortem-specimens.html. It is important to remember that death certificate reporting may not meet mandatory reporting requirements for reportable diseases; contact the local health department regarding regulations specific to the jurisdiction. In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible.

My reading of this is that there is a distinct difference between "Cause of Death" (which is what the person actually died of) and "Underlying Cause of Death" or "UCOD" (which are "contributing factors" that lead to a person's death).

The "top line" lists the cause of death and the lines below that list the UCODs and the guidelines clearly state for the physicians to use their "sound medical judgement" when determining the immediate cause of death.

In no way do these guidelines instruct any physician to list the official Cause of Death as COVID-19 even if COVID-19 is an "Underlying Cause of Death" but the primary "Cause of Death" is something else.

[Herb]

In no way shape or form do I offer Slate as being completely objective, but if you can read the article and separate points pertinant to the issue from the opinion of the publishiung organization, they make some key points regarding how the death tolls might actually be underreported:

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/real-coronavirus-death-toll-higher-than-official-number.html

 

[Herb]

Lastly, the death toll from the Coronavirus nationwide is being currently reported at over 9,500 deaths. 

This is roughly triple the number of deaths from the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

My question is simple: why or why not does the response to coronavirus deserve to be commensurate in terms of money spent to the response to 9/11?

I'm curious to find out what people think on this. We're willing to protect people by deploying troops but apparently unwilling to protect people's actual lives by making insurance affordable and available to all and ensuring that our healthcare system is prepared for this and future pandemics.

[houtiger]

Everything you wanted to know about the toilet paper shortage!!!

https://marker.medium.com/what-everyones-getting-wrong-about-the-toilet-paper-shortage-c812e1358fe0

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, Herb said:

Lastly, the death toll from the Coronavirus nationwide is being currently reported at over 9,500 deaths. 

This is roughly triple the number of deaths from the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

My question is simple: why or why not does the response to coronavirus deserve to be commensurate in terms of money spent to the response to 9/11?

I'm curious to find out what people think on this. We're willing to protect people by deploying troops but apparently unwilling to protect people's actual lives by making insurance affordable and available to all and ensuring that our healthcare system is prepared for this and future pandemics.

i don’t think you can fairly compare a pandemic vs an act of war. 

they are just so completely different things that it is extremely difficult to quantify one vs the other. 

with war, there are things you can do to prevent attacks. there are ways you can end a war quickly. and for the most part, you know what you can expect and how to react to it. Also with war, we (typically) have to option of fighting it elsewhere rather than on the home front. While doing it overseas is more expensive, it drastically cuts down the loss of civilian life.

with pandemics, there’s only so much you can do.  you don’t know what the next one will be. you don’t know what type or what part of body it will attack. you don’t know how to prevent it or how fast it will spread. and until it’s here for a bit, you don’t even know how to attack it and end it.  it’s virtually impossibly to plan ahead and prepare for.  And once it’s here, we have no choice but to handle it on our turf. We can’t pack it up and move it away from our citizens. 

 

[LSUDad]

3 hours ago, houtiger said:

Everything you wanted to know about the toilet paper shortage!!!

https://marker.medium.com/what-everyones-getting-wrong-about-the-toilet-paper-shortage-c812e1358fe0

In 73, I remember this shortage well. In 70’s the gas shortage, speed limits moved to 55 mph. 
In 1999 Sheetrock Shortage. 
In 2008, .22 Shell Shortage. 
 

The Sheetrock shortage was due in part to a mild winter, a shutdown of manufacturing and continuation in the housing market. 

[LSUDad]

 

 

https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/venezuelan-navy-vessel-sinks-after-opening-fire-on-cruise-ship/amp/

 

Video

 

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32893/video-emerges-of-venezuelan-navy-ship-firing-on-and-colliding-with-cruise-ship-before-sinking

[Herb]

WRT to toilet paper, this is something I am completely unworried about. If I run out because of hoarding boneheads, my shower is lierally one step from my toilet and I have a hand held shower head.

Crisis averted, but I'll probably need to keep the Clorox Cleanup nearby.

[Fishhead]

13 hours ago, houtiger said:

Everything you wanted to know about the toilet paper shortage!!!

https://marker.medium.com/what-everyones-getting-wrong-about-the-toilet-paper-shortage-c812e1358fe0

I call BS on that because TP disappeared from the shelves almost immediately, prior to workplaces, hotels, restaurants, and schools closing. 

Why is it hard to believe people are just nuts?  There are examples everywhere everyday

[Fishhead]

Interestingly though, we haven't had to purchase any since this started. Initially I was concerned so I went out to my camper and found a brand new unopened 6 pack (of tp). Brought it in all excited like I had just saved our lives, and my wife led me to the spare bathroom. Once there, she instructed me to  "see if it'll fit in that cabinet". Nope  back out to the camper it went. She had about 22 rolls from a 24 pack in there plus a nearly full 12 pack in our bathroom. 

[Fishhead]

OK, question...

When we now allegedly have a tiger from the Bronx Zoo testing positive, what difference do you think shelter in place is going to do??  If animals are now carrying the virus, we're all gonna get it.  Or wait, you expect me to believe only tigers can get it or only zoo animals can get it?  Gimme a break.  

OOOOH!  Another question!  

We don't have enough tests for the humans, but we're testing tigers in the zoo?  C'mon, mane!

 

I'm in the middle on this thing.  I know it's real and I know people are dying.  That said, I agree with the side that says it's overblown to a degree.  Like, the reaction is overblown, not the illness.  We're literally going to implode the world's economy over this?  That will cause more harm than the virus itself.  People will go hungry and that'll kill you too.  I had two claims in March.  2.  TWO!  Zero in the last 3 weeks.  March is typically the beginning of our busy season with an increase in weather claims. 
Insurance is considered "essential", but either people aren't filing claims scared to have an adjuster at their house (I'd wear PPE, but honestly don't want interior inspections right now), or the insurance companies are handling them quietly with inside staff adjusters.  What the fornicate is gonna happen if we get a hurricane landfall??  Or some other major catastrophe?  
So it's likely an SBA loan for us.  We incorporated on 1/1/20.  Great timing, huh?  I should've just stayed a staff adjuster instead of trying to start a small business.  (I haven't been staff since 2016, but operated as a sole proprietor from then until 1/1/20 when I incorporated with my wife).  

 

 

Oh, and fornicate China!

 

[LSUDad]

On 4/5/2020 at 12:51 AM, LSUDad said:

RIP Tom, from Mike Detiller. 

 

The death of former Saints PK. Tom Dempsey due to complications in contracting the CoronaVirus disease.
He was 73 years old.
Tom was a good man and meant so much to our community on and off the field.
Loved to talk football and before health issues occurred in his life a few years ago Emile Gauchet and David Hilbert got him to come do a show with Bobby J and I at Silver Slipper Casino Hotel..

He was so gracious with his time and was just a good man in life. 
Prayers and condolences for Carlene and his children and his many friends ..

The kick. 
 

 

[Fishhead]

Y'all know I hate politics and politicians.  I literally fought when we were on the other site to do away with the political forum because of my hatred for politics and the divide it inevitably will bring to those of us who gather here (at least 6' apart, of course) to share our love for LSU and mostly LSU sports. 

That said, I also detest mainstream media.  ALL of it.  Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, etc.  For the same reason I hate politics and politicians.  They're ALL out to spin things their way.  Truth doesn't sell.  Period. 

But........

Some things are out there that can absolutely be proven.  

Trump...did he or did he not institute a travel ban regarding China early on in the face of the COVID 19 threat?  Yes, yes he did.  And he was BLASTED for it by the democratic leadership...Pelosi, Biden, even ol' Bernie.  He discussed shutting down the border with regards to COVID 19, and was called a racist, xenophobe, whatever.  

Yet here's these same people today blasting Trump for not acting early ENOUGH??  

I don't care where you get your news.  This stuff is literally publicly available to research and form your own conclusion.  

That's where, although I believe COVID 19 is real and it's a bad thing, the MEDIA has blown it way out of proportion. 

Quote

“It’s exciting to be here, especially at this time, to be able to be unified with our community,” Pelosi said on Feb. 24. “We want to be vigilant about what is out there in other places. We want to be careful about how we deal with it, but we do want to say to people ‘Come to Chinatown, here we are — we're, again, careful, safe — and come join us.'”

Two days later, the San Francisco Chronicle ran a story titled "Get ready now for probable coronavirus pandemic in U.S., federal officials warn."

President Trump banned travel to the United States from China by foreign nationals in late January, citing public health concerns.

 

 

Pelosi attacked Trump over the weekend for not doing more to combat the spread of the virus.

"The president, his denial at the beginning, was deadly. His delaying of getting equipment to where it — continues his delaying in getting equipment to where it's needed is deadly," Pelosi said Sunday. "This is such a tragedy. We don’t even know the magnitude of it because we don’t have adequate testing."

 

These things actually happened and if you don't see the hypocrisy you're blind.  I don't care what MSM news outlet you choose to waste your time with.  This stuff is all publicly available.  

 

[Fishhead]

Joe Biden:

 

Biden first accused Trump of xenophobia in dealing with the coronavirus pandemic on January 31, at a campaign rally in Fort Madison, Iowa -- in comments that came shortly after Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar announced the travel ban.

"You know we have right now a crisis with the coronavirus, emanating from China," Biden said then. "The national emergency and worldwide alerts. The American people need to have a president who they can trust what he says about it. That he is going to act rationally about it. In moments like this, this is where the credibility of a president is most needed, as he explains what we should and should not do. This is no time for Donald Trump's record of hysterical xenophobia and fear mongering to lead the way instead of science."

Biden has since accused Trump of xenophobia on Twitter. And in a mid-March press conference, he lambasted Trump's labeling of coronavirus a "foreign" virus, saying the United States should not "panic or fall back on xenophobia. Labeling Covid-19 a foreign virus does not displace accountability for the misjudgments that have been taken thus far by the Trump administration."

 

This fool is trying everything he can to play the friggin race card to win an election, when the simple truth is, he was dead wrong about the issue early on when Trump instituted the travel ban, which of course Biden now agrees with and thinks Trump acted too slowly to it. 

[Fishhead]

Fact of the matter is, I am NOT a fan of Donald Trump in general.  I think he needs to work on keeping his twitter mouth shut and needs to learn public speaking skills, quit being such a bloviating buffoon when he speaks...everything is the greatest, the best ever, the biggest, the most amazing, blah blah blah.  Learn some new words. 

But!  The DNC's reaction to ANYTHING he does is to disagree and denegrate regardless if he's right or wrong.  They'll never agree with anything he does, and it's gonna be their death.  How are they so stupid they can't see this??  The republicans were similar when Clinton was POTUS.  They didn't like him...I didn't either...but he was a pretty good president.  But since they didn't like him, they did everything in their power to go against ANYTHING he did, and it hurt them.  Look at the candidates they ran against him in '96 lol.  It's like we're watching history repeat itself, but instead of republicans being stupid, it's the democrats.  Look at the candidates they put up against Trump lol.  

[Fishhead]

Wow, this is the most I've spoken about politics in decades.  But take this from it.  I STILL think they're all idiots, they're all crooks, and there isn't a good one to be found.  I don't like a single one of them.

[LSUDad]

Lost another, Bond girl, Honor Blackman. 

 

https://comicbook.com/irl/2020/04/06/honor-blackman-dead-dies-94-obituary-james-bond-girl/

[Hatchertiger]

2 hours ago, LSUDad said:

Lost another, Bond girl, Honor Blackman. 

 

https://comicbook.com/irl/2020/04/06/honor-blackman-dead-dies-94-obituary-james-bond-girl/

 

[Fishhead]

3 hours ago, LSUDad said:

Lost another

Unrelated:

"Contrary to what many fans may assume about the timing, Honor Blackman did not pass away from complications related to the novel coronavirus COVID-19, but rather from what The Guardian describes as "natural causes" related to her age. "

[LSUDad]

2 hours ago, Hatchertiger said:

 

Not to be confused with Plenty O’Toole, the other Bond Girl! 
 

I did kind of like Tiffany Case, Mary Goodnight, Dr Holly Goodhead, but the best, Honey Rider! How did we get this far, it’s the virus I tell you!

Edited April 6, 2020 by LSUDad

[houtiger]

7 hours ago, Fishhead said:

I'm in the middle on this thing.  I know it's real and I know people are dying.  That said, I agree with the side that says it's overblown to a degree.  Like, the reaction is overblown, not the illness.  We're literally going to implode the world's economy over this?  That will cause more harm than the virus itself.  People will go hungry and that'll kill you too.

I don't think the reaction is overblown.  I heard an epidemiologist say this is the most easily transmitted virus he has ever seen and its deadly (the guy was recovering from corona!).  There is no vaccine against it, nor is there any proven effective treatment that stops the effect of the virus.  There are a lot of trials going on for existing drugs to see if they are effective treatments.  Two companies are working on a vaccine, but that is seen as 18 months out.  The deaths occur in all age groups, except I have not heard of any under the age of 20, except with known underlying conditions.  But I hear of healthy people in their 30's and 40's that die.  Why?

I think the lockdown is until an effective treatment is found, and we all hope that an existing drug will work in most cases.  Some hope the vaccine can be rushed through and available in January, but people who have been through the process say no, that won't happen.  I don't know when they started, Feb. 1?  I'm sure they were working on it when it was in China only.

Now lets say they find an effective treatment, it works pretty good, and the mortality rate is reduced in each age group by 90%.  What are you going to do, how will you alter your lifestyle, if at all?  What will your wife think about that plan?

It will probably differ by age group and underlying conditions.  I have bad lungs.  I ain't flying (of course they won't miss me, I haven't flown since 2010).  Vacation to Florida, will drive, probably go.  Cruise, not on your life, not until they have a clean record for 2 years.  LSU football game?  Hmmm.  Last one I made was bowl game vs. Texas Tech.

The lockdown is to give them time to find a treatment.  But if the govt. says go, individuals will make their own mind up about how freely to move around in the society, and I think it will be a while before folks go back to January level of normal.  It will probably take a vaccine for that to happen.

[Nutriaitch]

6 minutes ago, houtiger said:

I don't think the reaction is overblown.  I heard an epidemiologist say this is the most easily transmitted virus he has ever seen

 

then I have a question.

why does the flu infect an average of 7 million americans every single month? And actually, that's extrapolating the flu over 12 months rather than the 6 where it is most prevalent. Mathematically, that number during the months of October-May is actually significantly higher.  Maybe closer to double that number. PER MONTH, not total cases. Case per individual month.
we aren't even at half a million (Americans) yet almost 3 months in.

if this was transmitted as easily (let alone a LOT easier as the reports say), then why do the total numbers pale in comparison?

I ask this to educate myself.
Because again I just look at numbers.  And those numbers currently tell a different story.

In fact, since December we are still below 1.5million in the world.

that's not even remotely close to how many catches the flu in a Month. ONE month.
 

so please explain to me (scientifically) how something that is more easily transmitted and more contagious with no vaccine is so far and away behind something less contagious with a vaccine.

 

[houtiger]

50 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

then I have a question.

why does the flu infect an average of 7 million americans every single month? And actually, that's extrapolating the flu over 12 months rather than the 6 where it is most prevalent. Mathematically, that number during the months of October-May is actually significantly higher.  Maybe closer to double that number. PER MONTH, not total cases. Case per individual month.
we aren't even at half a million (Americans) yet almost 3 months in.

if this was transmitted as easily (let alone a LOT easier as the reports say), then why do the total numbers pale in comparison?

I ask this to educate myself.
Because again I just look at numbers.  And those numbers currently tell a different story.

In fact, since December we are still below 1.5million in the world.

that's not even remotely close to how many catches the flu in a Month. ONE month.
 

so please explain to me (scientifically) how something that is more easily transmitted and more contagious with no vaccine is so far and away behind something less contagious with a vaccine.

I explained this to you early in this topic.  The flu is not as dangerous, so all americans move freely in the society.  With this corona virus, about 2/3 of the country has been locked down for weeks.  We are mechanically adjusting the transmission rate of corona virus by keeping people indoors.

Quote

 

The true death rate could turn out to be similar to that of a severe seasonal flu, below 1 percent, according to an editorial published in the journal by Dr. Anthony S. Fauci and Dr. H. Clifford Lane, of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and Dr. Robert R. Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. But more recently, Dr. Fauci has cited the 1 percent estimate, emphasizing that it is 10 times the death rate from seasonal flu.

Each person with the coronavirus appears to infect 2.2 other people, on average. But the figure is skewed by the fact that the epidemic was not managed well in the beginning, and infections soared in Wuhan and the surrounding province. As an epidemic comes under control, the reproduction number, as it’s called, will fall.

By comparison, the figure for the seasonal flu is roughly 1.3.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-vs-flu.html

 

 

[Fishhead]

Hou, bottom line is, you're right that it's more contagious. That said, we're all gonna be exposed to it and if a million Americans die,  that would be devastatingly tragic. 

It would also be 1/3 of 1% of our population, but I digress. 

Thing is though, we can go to the grocery, where everybody goes every week. We can golf, exercise outside, fish, etc.  But being gainfully employed is practically forbidden at this point. Eff that. I got people to feed. 

[Nutriaitch]

19 minutes ago, houtiger said:

I explained this to you early in this topic.  The flu is not as dangerous, so all americans move freely in the society.  With this corona virus, about 2/3 of the country has been locked down for weeks.  We are mechanically adjusting the transmission rate of corona virus by keeping people indoors.

 

Today makes 2 weeks for Louisiana, which is the reported Incubation period. Meaning we are not yet seeing statistical results from said lockdown.
So the first 2.5 months we weren't on lockdown, why did it not explode into the millions like the flu does?

Louisiana had it's frost "confirmed" case less than 2 weeks after mardi gras.

It was another 2 weeks before a lockdown.
The flu flourished during this time (average of just under 5,000 case per week in Louisiana) because as you said we moved around freely.
So, during the 5 weeks between Mar 9 (1st case) and now, why aren't the COVID numbers astronomically higher than flu numbers for the same time frame?

COVID has no vaccine and is reportedly "more contagious" and "easier to transmit"
Flu has a vaccine and is reportedly less contagious.

So why during that 5 week period does the more contagious one with no vaccine not easily outpace the other?