4 - 3 defense vs the 3 - 4 ?

[houtiger]

What do you think?  Why should you play one vs. the other?  Do you go off what personnel you have?  Or do you look at the type of offense teams are running and scheme to play that type of attack?

I think the nature of the game has changed from running the ball to throwing the ball.  I think the 4-3 is better suited to stopping the run, and the 3-4 is better suited to defending the passing game.  When a team goes with 5 wide receivers and an empty backfield, and especially when they have talent at all the receiver spots like many college teams do these days, you need a lot of quick guys that can cover them.  You might get more pressure from 4 down linemen, but QB's have gotten good at quick slants and they can defeat the big rush.  If you go with 3 down linemen, then you have 4 linebackers, and those guys on the outside are a lot faster than defensive ends.  An fast DE can either rush the passer, or play coverage on a tight end or running back going out for a pass.  

Saban went to the 3-4.  Offenses changed their scheme to wide open attacks and run-pass option (RPO), and Saban decided he needed to change defensive scheme to defend it, but geting one more fast guy out there, sitting a large slow defensive lineman.

When LSU hires a new DC, will he run the 4-3 that O likes, or will he run a 3-4 if that is what he likes?

When you look around, even the top defenses today struggle with spread offenses.  Who would have thought 20 years ago that if your defense held the other team under 400 yards and 30 points, you had a good day?  Of course you won the game today because you put up 450 yards of offense and scored 35 points.

Thoughts?

[Nutriaitch]

considering teams are almost never in base anymore it’s not really 4-3 / 3-4 anymore. 

Clemson and Auburn have done quite well running a 4-3 the last few years. 
and in reality Alabama has going backwards defensively since making the switch to 3-4. 

 

 

[houtiger]

1 hour ago, Nutriaitch said:

considering teams are almost never in base anymore it’s not really 4-3 / 3-4 anymore. 

Clemson and Auburn have done quite well running a 4-3 the last few years. 
and in reality Alabama has going backwards defensively since making the switch to 3-4.

Clemson had the #1 rated defense going into the championship game against us last year, we shredded them, could have easily had two more TD's.  Clemson did not play a difficult schedule last year.  It's been pretty easy for Clemson to make it to the playoff because their conference is weak.  FSU ain't playing for nothing these days, big drop there.  Clemson puts up good stats, and when they play a really good team, they are not all that on defense.  They had a great defense two years ago when they beat InbredGumps for the natty, put a couple d-linemen in the NFL, but not every year.  There stats are deceiving.  Auburn had a GREAT d-line in 2019, but we beat them.

InbredGumps may surrender more yards than in the past, but they are also playing more spread offenses, like LSU for one.  Saban still brings home the hardware.

[Nutriaitch]

we talking just defenses or head coaches?

because obviously Saban is number one as a head coach. 

but when it comes to defense his teams have gone backwards the last few years. 
coinciding almost perfectly with his switch to the 3-4.

Venebles is a VERY good DC. runs a 4-3. 

Steele has done very well at Auburn. runs a 4-3. 

Ohio State is typically solid on D. runs a 4-3. 

in the NFL, the Saints may have best D in the league. run a 4-3. 

 

[LSUDad]

Most will remember when the little guy was complaining, the hurry-up and spread offense was going to hurt more people, add to injuries, fatigue, etc.
Wonder what happened, change or lose games? 

[Hatchertiger]

Yeah now he is the poster child of spread offenses. 

[houtiger]

I found this:
 

Quote

 

A lot of credit for popularizing the 3-4 is most likely due to the success the Pittsburgh Steelers have had over the years they have utilized it. As of this year, there are 17 NFL teams that operate out of a 3-4 base defense, and only 15 that operate out of a 4-3.

<snip> (some stats analysis done)

We may never get an exact answer to the question, because there may not be one. Teams can succeed in either base defense. It most likely comes to coaches and the players themselves

 

 

Another good article: https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/3-4-vs-4-3-Defense-Football

Edited January 3, 2021 by houtiger

[LSUDad]

14 hours ago, Hatchertiger said:

Yeah now he is the poster child of spread offenses. 

So true, he hired Lane Kiffin, knowing it wasn’t going away! 

[Nutriaitch]

17 hours ago, LSUDad said:

Most will remember when the little guy was complaining, the hurry-up and spread offense was going to hurt more people, add to injuries, fatigue, etc.
Wonder what happened, change or lose games? 

he still loses games every year. 

3 hours ago, houtiger said:

I found this:
 

 

Another good article: https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/3-4-vs-4-3-Defense-Football

so, roughly 50%

[LSUDad]

As long as you have personal, you can play either. More and more teams are playing multiple formations, LSU included. 

In a 4 man front, you can still use a nose tackle. 

Ive said before, two Tigers went back and forth with a 3-4 and a 4-3, Kyle Williams and Bennie Logan. Every DC change, they were flipping back and forth. 

Watch on 3rd and long, we use speed rushers. Get to the QB. 
 

Last year(2019) we went up against 3-4’s and 4-3’s, what one gave us the most problems? The Auburn front, why, the players on that front. A few of those guys are doing well in the NFL. The two DT’s, one went in the first, the other went in the second round. O tried to get both. 
 

 

 

[Fishhead]

4-2-5 is more likely than 4-3.

O wants a 4 man front. That's what we're gonna have.  

I personally would prefer it as well because as we saw this season,  it leads to more turnovers and sacks. Get pressure with your front 4 and cause disruption. 

Problem with this season was our best safety in coverage was a damn linebacker. With the safety haul this recruiting class (and hopefully Raymond running the entire secondary going forward), 4 man front is what we should run. We've already lost our nose tackles and have recruited 4-3 guys. 

[Herb]

3 hours ago, Fishhead said:

4-2-5 is more likely than 4-3.

O wants a 4 man front. That's what we're gonna have.  

I personally would prefer it as well because as we saw this season,  it leads to more turnovers and sacks. Get pressure with your front 4 and cause disruption. 

Problem with this season was our best safety in coverage was a damn linebacker. With the safety haul this recruiting class (and hopefully Raymond running the entire secondary going forward), 4 man front is what we should run. We've already lost our nose tackles and have recruited 4-3 guys. 

 

I assume having the right safeties is key for 4-2-5. We have been pretty good at getting those.

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, Herb said:

 

I assume having the right safeties is key for 4-2-5. We have been pretty good at getting those.

with Aranda we ran a 3-3-5. 

want to know the main difference between the two?

 

We called K’Lavon a linebacker and Ojulari a DE. 

[Hatchertiger]

LSU ran the "cheetah" package under Aranda  to get more speed on the field to rush the passer with 2 and sometimes only one defensive lineman:

Quote

LSU defensive coordinator Dave Aranda debuted a new pass-rushing package during the first half of the win over Syracuse last week: Cheetah. This is the real Cheetah — not the one we all mistook for Cheetah earlier this season.

Aranda’s true Cheetah package features just one defensive lineman, a whopping five linebackers and five defensive backs. The Tigers opened the season against BYU debuting a package that Orgeron referred to as “Cheetah." That formation includes two defensive linemen, four linebackers and five defensive backs.

That’s actually LSU’s “base nickel” defense, cornerback Donte Jackson revealed Monday. Coaches remove a lineman and insert an outside linebacker against pass-heavy teams, LaCouture said, to produce the 2-4-5 look.

LaCouture admits it's similar to the Cheetah — just a heavier version — but the real Cheetah is the thing that got its first test Saturday against Syracuse, when coaches removed all but one defensive lineman, usually LaCouture, and inserted the team’s best three pass rushers: Corey Thompson, K’Lavon Chaisson and Arden Key.

 

It’s the rare 1-5-5 formation.

“That’s the whole concept of calling it Cheetah,” Jackson said, “getting a lot of pass rushers on the field to try to rattle the quarterback a little bit.”

https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/sports/lsu/article_ac06f04c-a2f7-11e7-ab55-ab33a3b27dd4.html

Pelini also ran the cheetah package:

https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/sports/lsu/article_cb38a048-2d08-11eb-ab69-d355dfc97db0.html

There are actually many fronts that can be presented with the 1 or 2 d-lineman, this being one of them. Here Rashard Lawrence and Christian LaCouture are the 2 d-lineman.

[Hatchertiger]

In my junior year in high school we started out the season in basically a 2-6-3 / 4-4-3 defense. We had 2 defensive tackles in a 3 point stance that could line up anywhere across the line from the offensive tackles outside should in. Our 2 defensive ends were on the line of scrimmage but standing up like a linebacker. We had 2 inside and 2 outside linebackers, 2 CBs and one safety. The inside LB position depended on where the DTs lined up.   The 2 vs. 4 depends on whether you count the DEs as lineman or linebackers being they were upright and not in a 3 or 4 point stance.  Coach ran it because we were very thin on big defensive lineman. In the end teams ran through that defense like a sieve.  It could have worked but it was a bit complicated for some of my teammates.  Ended up going back to the old "50" defense without much of a  change in results. 3-7.  Can't tell you what I wore yesterday, but I remember that defense. By the way I was an outside linebacker, switch back to FS once we went back to the 50.  For those of you who met you know I'm far from a giant LOL but I was fast   ... at least I was then   Its funny how when I run into one of  my old teammates even today how we have a special bond, each of knowing the blood, sweat and tears we went through to play football.  As my coach used to say "A weak man has no place to hide on a football field!"  

Edited January 4, 2021 by Hatchertiger

[LSUDad]

On 1/3/2021 at 9:00 AM, houtiger said:

I found this:

A lot of credit for popularizing the 3-4 is most likely due to the success the Pittsburgh Steelers have had over the years they have utilized it. As of this year, there are 17 NFL teams that operate out of a 3-4 base defense, and only 15 that operate out of a 4-3. 

<snip> (some stats analysis done)

We may never get an exact answer to the question, because there may not be one. Teams can succeed in either base defense. It most likely comes to coaches and the players themselves.

 

Another good article: https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/3-4-vs-4-3-Defense-Football

The Steel Curtain

The tilted nose tackle originally started in Pittsburgh in the 1970s, and was a key (or even *the* key) to the Steelers' defensive dominance at the time. Pittsburgh ran an undersized 4-3 defense predicated on speed, and Bud Carson and Chuck Noll dominated the NFL for half a decade with that design.

Back in 1974, the Steelers were looking for their first Super Bowl championship, and had a defense anchored by Hall of Famers Mean Joe Greene and Jack Lambert, both of whom were key reasons for the invention of the tilted nose tackle. It's not clear exactly when the Steelers first implemented that technique, but it came late in the 1974 season, or even in the playoffs.

 

Mean Joe at a Terry Bradshaw awards banquet. He was at the table next to ours.