'O'pen Discussion

[Fishhead]

49 minutes ago, houtiger said:

No disagreement with Josh Pate.  Well said.

He's saying the exact thing I'm saying, just more politely. 

[Nutriaitch]

13 hours ago, Fishhead said:

Josh Pate says it WAAAAY better than I could. 

Anybody find anything wrong with what he says??

 

cliff’s notes?

[Fishhead]

34 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

cliff’s notes?

LSU fans are passionate, and if you're selling them something they can believe in, they'll fight for you even if you lose a game.

But what they won't tolerate is you telling them all the issues are fixed, then trotting out a team with the exact same issues.

Not going to tolerate LSU being out-physicaled, out coached, out-adjusted, looking like we're getting out-athleted when we know good and well we have the better athletes. Said UCLA is primarily guys that wouldn't have gotten an LSU offer. Not gonna tolerate having half the team on the field because half of them are in the training room (or academically ineligible, he probably didn't know about that).  Says he understands you can't blame on a specific person, but when it's epidemic, there's an S&C problem. 

Said all that is not to even mention the off field crap. Board of Trustee members with bridges burned with Ed O, University has tried to help him out and he turned a cold shoulder to it.  Says there's an amount of baggage and a certain attitude that will be tolerated WHEN YOU'RE WINNING, but when you're not producing, "You can't do the kinda stuff Ed Orgeron is doing right now, and you can't run the kind of program he's running right now".  

Boom.  Hammer meet nail.

[COTiger]

I'm not a fan of Carville's politics, but he hit the nail on the head with his comments regarding O.
James Carville, noted LSU super fan, offers candid thoughts on Ed Orgeron's job security (saturdaydownsouth.com)

[Herb]

 

[dachsie]

Ouch!

[Herb]

Truth hurts.

[houtiger]

Just FYI, at the end of this season, O's buyout would be $21 million.  That is on poor contract management by Scott Woodward, giving O a new six year contract worth $42 million with all the bonuses figured in.  I don't like those long contracts, like Jimbo at aTm.  There is too much risk to the school, and as LSUDad has said, these coaches have a shelf life.  They can be good for a while, then they go to not so good.

https://fansided.com/2021/09/05/lsu-football-ed-orgeron-buyout-contract/

Ed's original contract was for 5 years, and he had coached 3 after it was signed.  So, there were 2 years remaining and Scott tore that up and gave him a huge raise and a 6 year deal, so that was a 4 year extension.  I have no problem paying him the bucks, but I would only have given him a 2 year extension, not a 4 year extension.

Bottom line, the buyout sits at $21 million at the end of this season.

 

[Herb]

Unless he gets fired for cause.

[Nutriaitch]

2 hours ago, houtiger said:

Just FYI, at the end of this season, O's buyout would be $21 million.  That is on poor contract management by Scott Woodward, giving O a new six year contract worth $42 million with all the bonuses figured in.  I don't like those long contracts, like Jimbo at aTm.  There is too much risk to the school, and as LSUDad has said, these coaches have a shelf life.  They can be good for a while, then they go to not so good.

https://fansided.com/2021/09/05/lsu-football-ed-orgeron-buyout-contract/

Ed's original contract was for 5 years, and he had coached 3 after it was signed.  So, there were 2 years remaining and Scott tore that up and gave him a huge raise and a 6 year deal, so that was a 4 year extension.  I have no problem paying him the bucks, but I would only have given him a 2 year extension, not a 4 year extension.

Bottom line, the buyout sits at $21 million at the end of this season.

 

geee, if only someone here called that when he got the contract. 

[COTiger]

1 hour ago, Herb said:

Unless he gets fired for cause.

It's going to be interesting to see if the LSU administration is willing to risk $21 million trying to justify firing him for cause.  I would guess both parties would be willing to negotiate a buy out.

[Nutriaitch]

31 minutes ago, COTiger said:

It's going to be interesting to see if the LSU administration is willing to risk $21 million trying to justify firing him for cause.  I would guess both parties would be willing to negotiate a buy out.

if that happens, the. that confirms LSU had something on him. 

maybe not enough to be a slam dunk court case, but enough to get O to negotiate. 

because people don’t just say “nah, i don’t want the full $21 mil, i’ll cut you a deal so i don’t get as much”

[houtiger]

29 minutes ago, COTiger said:

It's going to be interesting to see if the LSU administration is willing to risk $21 million trying to justify firing him for cause.  I would guess both parties would be willing to negotiate a buy out.

LSU may have trouble justifying termination for cause.  The Guice incident at the Superdome will not get it done for LSU.  The incident with a player telling O that Guice had sex with his girlfriend, what exactly did the player say?  Did he say "had sex with her", or did he say "raped her".  There were only two people in that conversation.  One word against another is not a strong case for LSU.

Now, suppose there is no new evidence that emerges.  The question would be, if you had all of this information 9 months ago, and you did not fire O for cause then, why do you think you have a case to fire him for cause now, if nothing has changed?  It would look like O had a bad season and they are now claiming they had cause to terminate him, in order to not pay his buyout.  Good chance that would not fly.  With $21 million at stake, I am sure O could hire a very good attorney that would take that case for 30% contingent fee.  Hatcher?

[Herb]

9 hours ago, houtiger said:

LSU may have trouble justifying termination for cause.  The Guice incident at the Superdome will not get it done for LSU.  The incident with a player telling O that Guice had sex with his girlfriend, what exactly did the player say?  Did he say "had sex with her", or did he say "raped her".  There were only two people in that conversation.  One word against another is not a strong case for LSU.

Now, suppose there is no new evidence that emerges.  The question would be, if you had all of this information 9 months ago, and you did not fire O for cause then, why do you think you have a case to fire him for cause now, if nothing has changed?  It would look like O had a bad season and they are now claiming they had cause to terminate him, in order to not pay his buyout.  Good chance that would not fly.  With $21 million at stake, I am sure O could hire a very good attorney that would take that case for 30% contingent fee.  Hatcher?

But there is also the Title IX investigation where I think at least 2 women came to Orgeron and claimed they were sexually assaulted by Guice and Orgeron kept him playing.

There also was apparently a thread on Kiddy Turds (or whatever the name of that other site is) that claims there is evidence that Orgeron had a sexual relationship with a student athletic trainer.

This thread was pulled (rightfully) because there is scant proof other than a video of the 2 of them in a hot tub at Orgeron's house with O allegedly being inebriated. Apparently this woman posted the video briefly on SnapChat, another user apparently downloaded a copy and sent it to the AD's office.

Time will tell if there is anything there. But it brings up 2 potentially troubling issues:

1. This could venture into Bill Clinton territory of Orgeron is having inappropriate relationships with people under his charge.
2. If Orgeron was inebriated, it means he may have fallen off of the wagon with his struggle with alcoholism. 

I ordinarily don't care about consensual relations between adults, but the AD's office may have grave concerns and possible reasons to builds a 'for cause' termination case. I know that - as person who is in management at my company - if I had an affair with a rank and file employee I could easily be fired.

What worries me more is that Orgeron may have lost his struggle with alcoholism during this period.  This could explain a lot of issues on and off of the field for Oergeron.

If he is under the influence of alcohol during "work hours", it could explain the product we're seeing on the field. If his clarity is impaired by substance abuse, it affects all aspects of his duties: practice, recruiting, professional behavior, game day management...the list goes on.

You may recall that USC fired Sarkasian for showing up at practice inebriated. That was 'for cause' and I think the balance of Sark's contract with USC was not honored. Same might be for LSU.

The problem we have (that I pointed out in another discussion) is that we do not have any assistant coaches on the staff (except maybe for Corey Raymond) that has the skill sets to be an interim head coach that can effectively manage the team should O be terminated. Therefore, I don't think we'll see any action until the season is more than 1/2 over or until it is completely over.

I'm thinking news and revelations will heat up in the latter part of the season. Until then, we have to swallow the bitter pill of this season and pay the debt for the 2019 high we've had.

 

[dachsie]

Ok - when do you think O will be gone?  This week, later in season?  Who do you think they will get for interim?  More importantly, who do you think we will get for a new head coach?  Who do you want?

 

[Fishhead]

The decision was made prior to the past two weeks, and I'm leaning more towards O not lasting the season now than I had been. 

Corey Raymond or Mickey Joseph would be interim. 

My list would include Franklin, Aranda, Fickell to start. Not sure where people are hearing Lincoln Riley but can't see him leaving his alma mater where he makes $7mill/year and is about to be in the sec anyway. 

 

[houtiger]

Raymond and Joseph are both position coaches, and I don't see someone stepping in easily to do their job.  I would look at Ensminger, he was OC for several years and is LSU thru and thru.  Or even look at the analyst ranks and see if there is someone with head coach experience at a smaller school.

[Herb]

2 hours ago, dachsie said:

More importantly, who do you think we will get for a new head coach?  Who do you want?

That is a BIG list.

• I like Fickel. I don't like or want Kiffin (sorry Fish).
• I like Mike D'Antonio, who - as a devout Catholic - I think would fit well in Southern Louisiana.
• I don't want Jimbo (or Kiffin...did I mention I don't like Kiffin? lol)
• I like what Campbell has done at Iowa State and he intrigues me, I'd be fine with him as long as he can handle the step up to LSU and can handle the pressure that is always present here.
• Not being politically correct here, but as Fishhead mentioned in the chat during the KY game, if we hired a black head coach (must be qualified for the job 1st and foremost)  it could be a difference maker for a lot of recruits where LSU is in their top 3-4 choices. That is a hard discussion to have and I have been someone who has spent all of my adult life trying to be color blind from a race perspective.
• Woodward likes to make splash hires and that makes it intriguing. Some names that fit that bill are people like Pete Carroll, Bill Cowher, and as wild as it might sound Nick Saban.
• James Franklin checks many, many boxes.
• I don't want the Weasel and I hope he is crossed off Woodward's list.
• Some NCAA assistants to consider:
  
  Tony Elliot - Clemson OC
  Marcus Freeman - Notre Dame DC (almost became our DC last year)
  Dan Lanning - UGA DC
  Alex Grinch - Oklahoma DC
  Josh Gattis - Michigan OC
   
• Bill O'Brien is mentioned a lot and those that live in Houston have strong opinions that he should not be hired
• Tom Herman is a damned good coach and had he actually taken the LSU job when we ended up hiring Orgeron we'd probably be in serious contention for another Natty this year. Not sure the relationship is salvageable at this point, though.
• Eric Bienemy - Kansas City Chiefs OC. Sure, Pat Mahomes makes him look good but he's still a really good coach. Can he recruit?
• Chris Peterson - former HC at Washington. He was hired by Woodward at UW so there is prior history there.
• Bob Stoops is another name kicked around a lot, but he falls under the "pass" column for me. He was known mockingly as "Big Game Bob" for a reason.
• Kilani Sitake - BYU head coach. I have no idea why nobody is mentioning him as a candidate. BYU went 11-1 last year and is 5-1 this year. He did have a couple of mediocre seasons at BYU, though.
• Billy Napier is in our own backyard and has turned the ULL program into a contender. He might be not interested, though?
• Brian Johnson - Philadelphia Eagles QB coach. Former Florida OC who was interviewed for both the Boise State HC job and the South Carolina HC job within the last 2 years. Considered one of the brightest offensive coaches that has SEC coordinator experience. 

There are probably many others out there, but at the end of the day I trust Woodward to do the right thing and make the right hire.

Given his success with getting Kim Mulkey and Jay Johnson here, I don't see him whiffing.

 

[Fishhead]

43 minutes ago, houtiger said:

Raymond and Joseph are both position coaches, and I don't see someone stepping in easily to do their job.  I would look at Ensminger, he was OC for several years and is LSU thru and thru.  Or even look at the analyst ranks and see if there is someone with head coach experience at a smaller school.

Joseph has HC experience

O was DL coach when he became interim

Ensminger would not take it. He hates the camera that much

[Fishhead]

34 minutes ago, Herb said:

That is a BIG list.

• I like Fickel. I don't like or want Kiffin (sorry Fish).
• I like Mike D'Antonio, who - as a devout Catholic - I think would fit well in Southern Louisiana.
• I don't want Jimbo (or Kiffin...did I mention I don't like Kiffin? lol)
• I like what Campbell has done at Iowa State and he intrigues me, I'd be fine with him as long as he can handle the step up to LSU and can handle the pressure that is always present here.
• Not being politically correct here, but as Fishhead mentioned in the chat during the KY game, if we hired a black head coach (must be qualified for the job 1st and foremost)  it could be a difference maker for a lot of recruits where LSU is in their top 3-4 choices. That is a hard discussion to have and I have been someone who has spent all of my adult life trying to be color blind from a race perspective.
• Woodward likes to make splash hires and that makes it intriguing. Some names that fit that bill are people like Pete Carroll, Bill Cowher, and as wild as it might sound Nick Saban.
• James Franklin checks many, many boxes.
• I don't want the Weasel and I hope he is crossed off Woodward's list.
• Some NCAA assistants to consider:
  
  Tony Elliot - Clemson OC
  Marcus Freeman - Notre Dame DC (almost became our DC last year)
  Dan Lanning - UGA DC
  Alex Grinch - Oklahoma DC
  Josh Gattis - Michigan OC
   
• Bill O'Brien is mentioned a lot and those that live in Houston have strong opinions that he should not be hired
• Tom Herman is a damned good coach and had he actually taken the LSU job when we ended up hiring Orgeron we'd probably be in serious contention for another Natty this year. Not sure the relationship is salvageable at this point, though.
• Eric Bienemy - Kansas City Chiefs OC. Sure, Pat Mahomes makes him look good but he's still a really good coach. Can he recruit?
• Chris Peterson - former HC at Washington. He was hired by Woodward at UW so there is prior history there.
• Bob Stoops is another name kicked around a lot, but he falls under the "pass" column for me. He was known mockingly as "Big Game Bob" for a reason.
• Kilani Sitake - BYU head coach. I have no idea why nobody is mentioning him as a candidate. BYU went 11-1 last year and is 5-1 this year. He did have a couple of mediocre seasons at BYU, though.
• Billy Napier is in our own backyard and has turned the ULL program into a contender. He might be not interested, though?
• Brian Johnson - Philadelphia Eagles QB coach. Former Florida OC who was interviewed for both the Boise State HC job and the South Carolina HC job within the last 2 years. Considered one of the brightest offensive coaches that has SEC coordinator experience. 

There are probably many others out there, but at the end of the day I trust Woodward to do the right thing and make the right hire.

Given his success with getting Kim Mulkey and Jay Johnson here, I don't see him whiffing.

 

That big of a list and no Aranda? I'm intrigued. 

I've heard some say he isn't a great recruiter. IMO, hire great recruiters and have an HC with a damn brain between his ears. O can recruit. How's that working out?

[Fishhead]

Also, I like Campbell too 

[Herb]

3 minutes ago, Fishhead said:

That big of a list and no Aranda? I'm intrigued. 

I've heard some say he isn't a great recruiter. IMO, hire great recruiters and have an HC with a damn brain between his ears. O can recruit. How's that working out?

I love Aranda...oversight on my part.

But I also think a lot of LSU fans are in the mind trap of past glory. Same for Brady on peoples' short list.

Aranda is way ahead of Brady in my book in terms of management and organizational skills.

 

[Fishhead]

Brady ain't happening. Aranda has HC experience and has Baylor looking way better

[houtiger]

12 minutes ago, Fishhead said:

Joseph has HC experience

O was DL coach when he became interim

Ensminger would not take it. He hates the camera that much

O was able to tap Pete Jenkins to take over the d-line coaching job in 2016, and we know how good Jenkins was.  He had an immediate quality backfill for his position.  That would not be easy to do, especially for Raymond.  If they did it with 2 games remaining, it would be ok, but with six games remaining, that would be a problem.  With Joseph, you've got a lot of young receivers that need coaching.

[houtiger]