NIL Gone Bad?

[LSUDad]

Sunbelt Billy, hit a home run! 

Jaden Rashada reportedly files for release from Florida

Derek Peterson | 17 hours ago

A truly wild saga in the recruitment of 5-star Pittsburg (Calif.) quarterback Jaden Rashada took another turn on Tuesday.

Six days after a report emerged stating that Rashada had requested a release from his National Letter of Intent from Florida — a report that was immediately denied by the Rashada family — 247Sports Brandon Huffman is reporting that Rashada filed paperwork with the NCAA on Tuesday asking out of his LOI.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dachsie]

The FL boosters think they are too good for NIL so they don't want to give the kid what he was promised in NIL.

[Nutriaitch]

13 hours ago, dachsie said:

The FL boosters think they are too good for NIL so they don't want to give the kid what he was promised in NIL.

 

i don't think that's accurate.
Florida is another school that's never been afraid to play around in that end of the pool. Don't know why they would stop now that they can do it "legally"

[Nutriaitch]

this one will be interesting to watch play out.
and will likely have an impact on the entire country by the time it's done.

this could be the type of case that re-writes how the NIL rules are written.
and on the surface at least, could get Florida slapped with a serious recruiting violation if his signing was based off a specific NIL deal.

 

[dachsie]

42 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

 

i don't think that's accurate.
Florida is another school that's never been afraid to play around in that end of the pool. Don't know why they would stop now that they can do it "legally"

Josh Pate said differently that's why i said that

[Nutriaitch]

36 minutes ago, dachsie said:

Josh Pate said differently that's why i said that

 what did pate say?

he's got more sources than I do, but i mean Florida has never been a beacon of morality, so not sure why they would start now that they don't even have to hide it anymore.

[dachsie]

 

[Nutriaitch]

30 minutes ago, dachsie said:

 

 

he's just guessing on why that particular deal collapsed.

why did that deal fall apart? I don't know.

But less than a year ago, Florida was openly bragging about buying free agents (transfers) with NIL money, so it ain't because "they're above it"

on3.com

Specifically the NIL group that bailed on Rashada.

[Nutriaitch]

what's going to be awesome is if this kid sues for the money (and i'm typically one who vehemently dislikes lawsuits).

depending on whether or not they had a signed agreement obviously, and language for cancelling, etc.
because Florida state law specifically forbids NIL deals to be tied to performance or even ATTENDANCE at a school.

which means:
if NCAA lets him out of his LOI, the "Gator Collective" will still owe him the $13 mil even if he's a student elsewhere.  Because they legally can not say the agreement was tied to him attending Florida.

So theoretically, this could end with Florida paying a kid $13 million to play for an arch rival 

this is exactly what we need to start happening to bring about major changes to this didley-poo as it currently exists.

[houtiger]

An interesting article on NIL collectives and rules:

"But the birth of collectives really comes from Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh’s concurring opinion following the Alston decision. 

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate,” Kavanaugh wrote. “And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

“The NCAA is not above the law.”

While the weakening of the NCAA following the court’s decision did not immediately result in the formation of these collectives, it exposed a larger problem. Less than two weeks after Kavanaugh’s opinion, the interim NIL policy went into effect. 

It appears the NCAA has a reluctance to invite and defend additional antitrust lawsuits. Because of that, NIL collectives and schools have been able to have internal conversations wondering if the NCAA has what it really takes to police the organizations."

https://www.on3.com/nil/news/what-are-nil-collectives-and-how-do-they-operate/

[Nutriaitch]

9 hours ago, houtiger said:

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate,” Kavanaugh wrote. “And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

“The NCAA is not above the law.”

 

few questions:

A. Who defines "fair market value"?

B. Do you remove the value of everything the receive from the university from the "fair market value"? because even though it's not being given to them in a form of a check or direct deposit, they are aboslutely receiving that monetary value.

C. Should High Schools students get paid too? They charge ticket sales, concessions, etc.  What about 8 years olds playing travel baseball? same thing. They charge the shyte out of you for everything, yet don't pay the kids.  Yes this question is mostly tongue in cheek, but it's just to illustrate that it will never end, and the NCAA is nowhere near the only one doing this.

D. Where does the money come from? 

I ask B because as recently as 2020 (most current year I found the info), only 18 of the 229 public schools participating in division 1 turned a profit in their athletic department.
that means 211 lost money.

209 of those lost over $1 million.

I did try to find a year other than 2020, because I know those numbers will be skewed due to COVID. But it is widely know that the vast, vast, vast majority of athletic departments lose money every year. And now 

But i'll post a chart and some quick math in the next post

 

Edit to add another question:
If it's determined athletes are "employees" and the university has to pay them, then does this mean scholarship limits are illegal?
I mean a walk-on gets no financial aid at all. Seems like they would have to get something, right?

 

 

[Nutriaitch]

So div 1 scholarships just using the Big 3 sports 

Football = 85 
Men Basketball = 13
Women Basketball = 15
Baseball =11.7
Softball = 11.7

 

how much do you think the average football player would get for "fair market value" (ovbiously the number would vary greatly by school and position, we're just using averages for this illustration)? $50,000 is probably a low number in most people's eyes, but lets use that.

Men's basketball? $30k? lets do $25K
Women's? half that?  call it $15k
Baseball is growing but still not on the above levels. call it $7,500
Softball $5,000

that comes out to $4.9 million.
according to the latest chart, you're now down to only 10 school turning a profit.

throw in all of the other "olympic sports" as they are called, even at only $2,500 each, the number just continues to skyrocket

If NCAA sports was truly operated as a business, there would be next zero women's sports.
Good luck getting that passed through.

 

 

[Herb]

21 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

what's going to be awesome is if this kid sues for the money (and i'm typically one who vehemently dislikes lawsuits).

depending on whether or not they had a signed agreement obviously, and language for cancelling, etc.
because Florida state law specifically forbids NIL deals to be tied to performance or even ATTENDANCE at a school.

which means:
if NCAA lets him out of his LOI, the "Gator Collective" will still owe him the $13 mil even if he's a student elsewhere.  Because they legally can not say the agreement was tied to him attending Florida.

So theoretically, this could end with Florida paying a kid $13 million to play for an arch rival 

this is exactly what we need to start happening to bring about major changes to this didley-poo as it currently exists.

To me, this can't happen soon enough.

I hope the "Gator Collective" that backed out on the deal they had with this kid loses every cent (which is reportedly in the $13 million range). I also hope that happens to several more collectives.

What is stupid about NIL right now is that market value is not set, a select few athletes are getting Bryce Young deals or better, and the rest of these kids think they should be getting that also.

Once several NIL collectives get burned, sanity will inject itself into the system and the ship will self-right. But that can only happen if several collectives literally pay the consequences for offering absurdly stupid money. That will likely result in collectives scaling back the amount of capital they put 'at risk'.

An alternative solution is to simply let the NCAA schools pay athletes directly. If NBA stars can play in the Olympics as 'amateurs', then let the NCAA member universities directly pay student athletes as 'amateurs'.

 

 

[Hatchertiger]

I predict that the matter will be resolved, too much at stake for all involved.

[Nutriaitch]

37 minutes ago, Herb said:

An alternative solution is to simply let the NCAA schools pay athletes directly. If NBA stars can play in the Olympics as 'amateurs', then let the NCAA member universities directly pay student athletes as 'amateurs'.

 

see my post directly above yours, there simply isn't enough money for that.

 

[houtiger]

13 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

A. Who defines "fair market value"?

If the NCAA wants to do something about NIL, and paying the athletes directly is the route, the NCAA will have to define fair market value.  I assume they would do that in consultation with the AD's.  The if a player sues saying that is not fair market value, a judge would review what the NCAA has done.  And fair market value would have to consider what revenues are available to pay the players.  If the NCAA went that route, they have to incorporate a salary cap.  They could use money from a "collective", i.e. "the boosters", but it would have to be capped.  Many D-1 schools won't be able to compete with Gumps, Georgia, etc. so we would end up with a "super conference, mostly the Big 10 and SEC.  They have been poaching off the biggest schools from the other conferences.

 

13 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

B. Do you remove the value of everything the receive from the university from the "fair market value"? because even though it's not being given to them in a form of a check or direct deposit, they are aboslutely receiving that monetary value.

I think the benefits they receive is considered a barter form of compensation.

 

13 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

C. Should High Schools students get paid too? They charge ticket sales, concessions, etc.  What about 8 years olds playing travel baseball? same thing. They charge the shyte out of you for everything, yet don't pay the kids.  Yes this question is mostly tongue in cheek, but it's just to illustrate that it will never end, and the NCAA is nowhere near the only one doing this.

Does the business generate enough revenue to pay them?  You can only pay folks if the endeavor generates enough revenue to allow it.  I think it is a no.  When I was in high school during the dark ages, the only reason the concession stand turned a profit selling popcorn and cokes was because the workers were all volunteers from the football booster club.  But those boosters bore no resemblance to the Gumps boosters!

[Nutriaitch]

15 minutes ago, houtiger said:

 

Does the business generate enough revenue to pay them? !

 

not even close. 

neither does the NCAA.  again, not even close.  well over 90%, probably closer to 95% lose money. 

 

so this didley-poo of paying players needs to go away. 

[houtiger]

17 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

not even close. 

neither does the NCAA.  again, not even close.  well over 90%, probably closer to 95% lose money.

so this didley-poo of paying players needs to go away. 

Clearly players are getting paid, by some reports, a few are making millions on NIL.

So, how do you create a level playing field?  Now the bottom probably 3/4 of the NCAA can't compete in a super conference.  But even if you had a super conference, how to you implement a salary cap like the NFL has done, so the same 3 teams are not always winning?

[Nutriaitch]

10 hours ago, houtiger said:

Clearly players are getting paid, by some reports, a few are making millions on NIL.

right now, the money is coming from outside sources.
No different than Patrick Mahomes doing All State commercials. That money doesn't come from the chiefs' pockets.

the question was about the NCAA paying them directly.

and there just isn't enough money for that.

LSU for example has reported losses of of over a million dollars each of the last 2 fiscal years.
every single sport on campus (except football) finished in the negative.

so the only way LSU can financially afford to pay players is to eliminate every other sport.
that's not happening.
 

10 hours ago, houtiger said:

So, how do you create a level playing field?  Now the bottom probably 3/4 of the NCAA can't compete in a super conference.  But even if you had a super conference, how to you implement a salary cap like the NFL has done, so the same 3 teams are not always winning?

i honestly don't know the answer to this one.
but the NFL isn't much better than College in the parity department.

[houtiger]

1 hour ago, Nutriaitch said:

right now, the money is coming from outside sources.
No different than Patrick Mahomes doing All State commercials. That money doesn't come from the chiefs' pockets.

the question was about the NCAA paying them directly.

and there just isn't enough money for that.

LSU for example has reported losses of of over a million dollars each of the last 2 fiscal years.
every single sport on campus (except football) finished in the negative.

so the only way LSU can financially afford to pay players is to eliminate every other sport.
that's not happening.

You have missed my suggestion.  It is to take all this NIL money raised by the collectives, put it into a fund for the universities to pay the players per a schedule like the NFL minimum wage by position.  Basically the scholarship means you are taking a job.  Then employer has the right to put restrictions on your activity, like "no second job", which means you give up your right to use your name image likeness for pay, but you get a job.  I showed that the "no second job" is enforceable.  It does not deny the right to make a living.  There would be a cap on the amount of money a collective could bring in.  That would level the playing field.  Now some teams want to cheat, and boosters would look for ways to pass money under the table to the athletes.  But if caught, you give up your program for a year or two.

It would create two tiers, those schools that could raise the max allowed for a collective, and those that can't.  We're headed that way anyhow.

[Nutriaitch]

16 minutes ago, houtiger said:

You have missed my suggestion.  It is to take all this NIL money raised by the collectives, put it into a fund for the universities to pay the players per a schedule like the NFL minimum wage by position.  Basically the scholarship means you are taking a job.  Then employer has the right to put restrictions on your activity, like "no second job", which means you give up your right to use your name image likeness for pay, but you get a job.  I showed that the "no second job" is enforceable.  It does not deny the right to make a living.  There would be a cap on the amount of money a collective could bring in.  That would level the playing field.  Now some teams want to cheat, and boosters would look for ways to pass money under the table to the athletes.  But if caught, you give up your program for a year or two.

It would create two tiers, those schools that could raise the max allowed for a collective, and those that can't.  We're headed that way anyhow.

i don't know if that would work.
in that situation, the players would probably demand some sort of representation.

and that representation probably wouldn't agree to a system that limits the amount of money the players can make.

plus by capping the collective, you're telling people you have no authority over what they can or can't do with their money.
Example: Phil Knight does not answer to the NCAA. If he wants to give $200 million dollars to the collective, how can you tell him he can't give it. Or tell Oregon they can't accept it?

also your top tier will be a LOT smaller than you think.
Like maybe 15 teams or so.  And not necessarily the Blue Bloods you're thinking of either.
 

 

 

 

[houtiger]

2 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

i don't know if that would work.
in that situation, the players would probably demand some sort of representation.

and that representation probably wouldn't agree to a system that limits the amount of money the players can make.

plus by capping the collective, you're telling people you have no authority over what they can or can't do with their money.
Example: Phil Knight does not answer to the NCAA. If he wants to give $200 million dollars to the collective, how can you tell him he can't give it. Or tell Oregon they can't accept it?

also your top tier will be a LOT smaller than you think.
Like maybe 15 teams or so.  And not necessarily the Blue Bloods you're thinking of either.

Major league baseball was given an exemption from the anti trust laws back in 1922, they still have it.  They may have to do something similar for the NCAA.

Then the NCAA can set rules.  If you want to be a member, you have to obey the rules.  A booster is free to donate what he wants, but the member schools don't have to take it.  They would not be free to accept over X dollars.  You're not telling people what they can do with their money, you are telling the member schools how much they can accept.  If Oregon takes it, they would be suspended from NCAA play until they conformed to the rules.

[dachsie]

Just to throw info out there - The FTC is considering a rule to eliminate non-compete agreements.  I learned this today in a meeting I am attending.

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, houtiger said:

you are telling the member schools how much they can accept.  If Oregon takes it, they would be suspended from NCAA play until they conformed to the rules.

 

in that case, exactly zero schools will vote for this rule and it never gets passed. 

[houtiger]

2 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

in that case, exactly zero schools will vote for this rule and it never gets passed. 

The alternative is the cluster we have now.  How do the fans and colleges like this?  I imagine the rich schools with rich boosters like it just fine.