How long should it take for Brian Kelly to build a sound team, from Jan. 2022?

[Swerved]

1 hour ago, houtiger said:

Read the title of the topic.  I did not ask how long he gets, as in firing him.  He has a long term contract, he's going to be here for years.

Many fans are hitting the panic button because our secondary looks weak, they seem to think we will fall below 9-3, and they think Kelly was a poor hire, or he doesn't know how to coach.  I am not in that camp.

I think we were misled going into the season by Kelly, the players, the national ranking, the sporting press.

When you look at the 2021 season ending CB situation and QB situation, and all position groups, Kelly had a lot of rebuilding to do, he did it well, but a lot of holes were filled with Sr. who left after one year.  To think you can go to the portal every year and field a championship contender is not reasonable.  You may need a certain position and on a given year there is no top quality guy at that position in the portal, or he chooses to go somewhere else.  The portal year in and year out is a crap shoot.  See Duce Chestnut and Zy Alexander.  The Denver Harris experiment is not over.

That task is not to get to 10-2, it is to consistently play at least at that level.

The fan base seems to be disappointed in Kelly because the team is not the 2002-2011 Tiger teams.  I think we are OK. 

 

For the record, my mentioning the secondary has nothing to do with my opinion of Kelly. I think he was a good hire and I'm all in... Just concerned about those individuals' collective state of mind. They will improve if Kelly is able to get them to buy into the team. As far as how long Kelly has or what is expected, I feel like discussing things of that nature is largely useless, particularly in the man's second season. Short of wrecking a motorcycle with a coed on back or something the likes of, he'll be around a while.

 

[houtiger]

1 minute ago, Swerved said:

For the record, my mentioning the secondary has nothing to do with my opinion of Kelly. I think he was a good hire and I'm all in... Just concerned about those individuals' collective state of mind. They will improve if Kelly is able to get them to buy into the team. As far as how long Kelly has or what is expected, I feel like discussing things of that nature is largely useless, particularly in the man's second season. Short of wrecking a motorcycle with a coed on back or something the likes of, he'll be around a while.

I have not asked how long Kelly has.  He has nine more years on his contract.  I like what he has done.

The question is "how long should he reasonably be given to build a consistently competitive program".

Nootch asked me to define sound program.

I said the target is 10-2, with some years at 11-1 or 12-0, and an occasional 9-3 in a down year.

My answer, is I think it would reasonably take 3 years for Kelly to do that.  There is only one other answer to the actual question, that is HatcherTiger who has said 4 years to build to a consistently high level.  I think 3 or 4 years is in the neighborhood of correct.

In basket ball, Mulkey pulled 4 stars out of the portal for a 5 person team and won a natty.  No 4 players are going to step in to a 6-6 football team and transform it to a natty contender in one year.

[Fishhead]

2 hours ago, houtiger said:

Read the title of the topic.  I did not ask how long he gets, as in firing him.  He has a long term contract, he's going to be here for years.

Many fans are hitting the panic button because our secondary looks weak, they seem to think we will fall below 9-3, and they think Kelly was a poor hire, or he doesn't know how to coach.  I am not in that camp.

I think we were misled going into the season by Kelly, the players, the national ranking, the sporting press.

When you look at the 2021 season ending CB situation and QB situation, and all position groups, Kelly had a lot of rebuilding to do, he did it well, but a lot of holes were filled with Sr. who left after one year.  To think you can go to the portal every year and field a championship contender is not reasonable.  You may need a certain position and on a given year there is no top quality guy at that position in the portal, or he chooses to go somewhere else.  The portal year in and year out is a crap shoot.  See Duce Chestnut and Zy Alexander.  The Denver Harris experiment is not over.

That task is not to get to 10-2, it is to consistently play at least at that level.

The fan base seems to be disappointed in Kelly because the team is not the 2002-2011 Tiger teams.  I think we are OK. 

 

Agree with this in general.  

My problem is, no matter how often I say I no longer follow recruiting...I kinda still do by accident. And it's not looking good in two particular areas.  

DB
DL

DL is OK right now because we already had guys for this season.  But depending on who leaves, we could be in SERIOUS trouble next season.  CB recruiting is atrocious and we better hope my mancrush is what I hope he is, as well as Denver Harris going through a rectal/cranial inversion.  Missing the best players in the state 2 years running is a bad look, and it's a bad result.  It will bite us in the ass if Kelly can't get some closers on staff.  I don't expect HIM to be the lead recruiter, but it appears our assistants (save Frank) kinda...suck.  

Next season is when Kelly said we could contend for championships.  We'll see.  I thought we would be better everywhere but CB this season.  But I knew CB was going to be an issue, and it is just that.  But even without the known and predicted issues at CB, House needs to get it together on defense and scheme.  I do expect us to be better going forward, basing that off last season.  Was just hoping we wouldn't need multiple games this season to get it together.  

[Nutriaitch]

59 minutes ago, houtiger said:

You are wrong, he was #2

oh my god!

the horrors!

59 minutes ago, houtiger said:

the point is totally irrelevant since he lost to Gumps the next week 30-16,

Ed lost 29-0 to them the year he got his extension and raise.
his 2nd shutout loss to them at home in as many tries.

Ed's 3 losses that year were to teams with roughly equivalent ranking and records to Les' 3 losses in 2015.

 

again.

one got got an extension and a raise for "overachieving"
the other got fired for "underachieving"
 

please, please, please 2nd guess me on this.
I have the stats to back up that the teams Les lost to were all better than the ones Ed lost to (just happened to be stacked on back end od schedule instead of scattered throughout).
I also have the stats to back up that Ed's offense that year was worse statistically than literally every single offense Les ever fielded at LSU except 2009 (7 years before he got fired, so can't say '09 is the reason we fired him).
 

so I want to know now, before we get there, where the goalposts are for Kelly.
they moved so much under the Ed administration I needed neck surgery to keep up.

if the goalposts for Kelly are where they were for Ed, we need to extend him ASAP.

it they are where they were for Les, his seat is warming up. fast.

 

59 minutes ago, houtiger said:

That is why he had to go.  His offense was moribund. 

2015 LSU
437.9 yards per game. in total offense .
good for #39 in the country.

he "had to go"

2018 LSU

402.1 yards per game total offense.
good for #69 in the country

Raise, extension, for "fixing" the offense.

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, houtiger said:

  Miles had one good win in 2015, over #8 Florida,

in 2018, prior to getting his raise and extension, 

Ed played against 2 teams that finished the year with 3 or fewer losses.

he lost both games.

59 minutes ago, houtiger said:

but it appeared the gap between Gumps and LSU was growing wider,

TWENTY-NINE to NOTHING (largest margin of defeat in the series until Ed topped that in 2020)
back to back home shutout losses. Something no other coach in the history of LSU football ever did.

raise.
extension.

 

59 minutes ago, houtiger said:

LSU was falling behind.

agreed.
and after 2018, we were even farther behind than we were in 2015.

one guy got fired.

the other got a raise.

 

I'm genuinely curious as to which standard will we hold Kelly to.

[Nutriaitch]

1 hour ago, houtiger said:

You think Joe is going to come to LSU because he knows the safety's coach?  Naw.

I mean college kids every year go to a school thanks to a relationship with an assistant coach.
that's literally EXACTLY how recruiting works.

1 hour ago, houtiger said:

Ed recruited Joe to LSU.  When Joe stood on the Heisman stage, he didn't thank Busch for bringing him to LSU, he thanked Ed.  He said Ed took a chance on Joe.  That's all you need to know.  Joe said it on the big stage, with Ed sitting next to his Dad.

allow me to rephrase.

I've said this in multiple podcasts now.
there are 2 ways to view recruiting.

1. is when you can sit in a living room and convince kid, mom, and dad to come to your school.  Ed was amazing at this.

2. and this one is by far the most important one. Is recognizing what you need, and who fills that spot.  Ed was absolutely atrocious at this his entire career at multiple stops.  So either Burrow was the classic example of Blind Squirrel finding a nut, or Busch telling Ed to go get him.

 

no Busch, no Burrow.

I'm sorry that hurts so many people's feelings, but it's the truth.

[houtiger]

2 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

oh my god!

the horrors!

Ed lost 29-0 to them the year he got his extension and raise.
his 2nd shutout loss to them at home in as many tries.

Ed's 3 losses that year were to teams with roughly equivalent ranking and records to Les' 3 losses in 2015.

 

again.

one got got an extension and a raise for "overachieving"
the other got fired for "underachieving"
 

please, please, please 2nd guess me on this.
I have the stats to back up that the teams Les lost to were all better than the ones Ed lost to (just happened to be stacked on back end od schedule instead of scattered throughout).
I also have the stats to back up that Ed's offense that year was worse statistically than literally every single offense Les ever fielded at LSU except 2009 (7 years before he got fired, so can't say '09 is the reason we fired him).
 

so I want to know now, before we get there, where the goalposts are for Kelly.
they moved so much under the Ed administration I needed neck surgery to keep up.

if the goalposts for Kelly are where they were for Ed, we need to extend him ASAP.

it they are where they were for Les, his seat is warming up. fast.

 

2015 LSU
437.9 yards per game. in total offense .
good for #39 in the country.

he "had to go"

2018 LSU

402.1 yards per game total offense.
good for #69 in the country

Raise, extension, for "fixing" the offense.

 

 

 

in 2018, prior to getting his raise and extension, 

Ed played against 2 teams that finished the year with 3 or fewer losses.

he lost both games.

TWENTY-NINE to NOTHING (largest margin of defeat in the series until Ed topped that in 2020)
back to back home shutout losses. Something no other coach in the history of LSU football ever did.

raise.
extension.

 

agreed.
and after 2018, we were even farther behind than we were in 2015.

one guy got fired.

the other got a raise.

 

I'm genuinely curious as to which standard will we hold Kelly to.

You miss the point entirely.  Do you want Les as the head coach?  Can you honestly say LSU should have retained him?

This is all you need to know, 13-1, 10-3, 10-3, 8-5, 9-3, 2-2 (Ed took over and finished 6-2). 

Les was not fired because he went 9-3.  He was fired because the program was headed in the wrong direction.  Statistics are for losers.  We can put up all kind of numbers against cupcakes.  We could out physical 9 teams on the schedule.  In the games that mattered, LSU did not have an adequate passing attack, teams put 8 in the box, stopped the run, and we were dead.

But why do you persist in litigating ancient history?  This is not productive, although I am right and the fan base and AD agreed with me.  Les was fired for good reason.

The question is, how long should Kelly be given to build a sound program, and I defined that for you.

[Fishhead]

Nootch is way too much in love with stats, that's a given. 

With that said, a safeties coach ABSOLUTELY is the reason Burrow came here.  Recruiting is about relationships, and Joe (and especially his father) had a solid relationship with Bill Busch.  Ed O was obviously involved in closing the deal, but Bill Busch deserves a TON of credit for 2019 due to his part getting Burrow to become Burreaux.  

Also regarding recruiting, including the mess we're in now with the secondary...that's on O.  He, like Miles towards the end of his tenure, could close on a nicely rated class.  But neither recruited to needs (Miles post 2014 or so and Ed...ever).  These are facts, not stats.  

Absolutely agree Les should've been run off.  I've said this in podcasts before, but I defended him to no end right up until the ride home from Lambeau in 2016.  He was fired a couple weeks later.  
Problem is, I was cool with Ed becoming interim, but he NEVER should've been considered for the head job.  Now hindsight is 20/20 (according to Eduardo Perez, it's 50/50), and 2019 is a fantastic memory we all have...and Ed absolutely gets to claim it.  But I will go to my grave knowing hiring Ed O was a huge mistake we just happened to be fortunate enough to get away with for a couple years before it predictably imploded. 

***Nootch doesn't think Les should be coach.  He just thinks it's hypocritical that Ed Orgeron, who Nootch ALWAYS thought was an unmitigated disaster, got a raise and extension for doing what got Miles fired.  He's not wrong, but then Ed wound up being here for the most magical season of all our lives.  

Like you said though, it's history.  Kelly is here, and was a smart hire.  Consider who else was available.  I'd personally prefer Kelly over Riley, and Tucker...gimme a break.  He's Michigan State's problem to deal with now.  They allowed him to swindle them and now they're paying the price.  

How 'right' Woody was remains to be seen, and will be decided by Kelly's success here.  He's got a job to do though.  He inherited a dumpster fire. 

[houtiger]

32 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

I mean college kids every year go to a school thanks to a relationship with an assistant coach.
that's literally EXACTLY how recruiting works.

allow me to rephrase.

I've said this in multiple podcasts now.
there are 2 ways to view recruiting.

1. is when you can sit in a living room and convince kid, mom, and dad to come to your school.  Ed was amazing at this.

2. and this one is by far the most important one. Is recognizing what you need, and who fills that spot.  Ed was absolutely atrocious at this his entire career at multiple stops.  So either Burrow was the classic example of Blind Squirrel finding a nut, or Busch telling Ed to go get him.

no Busch, no Burrow.

I'm sorry that hurts so many people's feelings, but it's the truth.

That is not true.  Look, you hate O and turn everything that O did was bad.  That is simply not objective.

Here is the published story:

"

LSU Football: How Ed Orgeron convinced Joe Burrow to come to Baton Rouge

by Zach Ragan 3 years ago

LSU football head coach Ed Orgeron had to work hard to convince Joe Burrow to join the Tigers in 2018.

When Joe Burrow decided to transfer from Ohio State, no one had any clue the kind of career he’d end up having as LSU football’s quarterback.

In fact, Burrow was relatively unknown in the college football world in 2018.

Sure, Burrow was a former four-star recruit that was rated by 247Sports as the No. 7 dual-threat rated quarterback in the 2015 class, but he was an afterthought after languishing on the Buckeyes’ bench for three years.

When Burrow decided to transfer, after receiving his degree from Ohio State, he narrowed his choices to two schools — Cincinnati and LSU.

Burrow was familiar with Cincinnati because of head coach Luke Fickell (who was on Ohio State’s staff during Burrow’s first two seasons in Columbus). He was familiar with LSU because Tigers safeties coach Bill Busch was an assistant at Ohio State in 2015.

At Cincinnati, Burrow was pretty much guaranteed the starting quarterback job. That was a big selling point. Burrow didn’t want to leave Ohio State just to go sit on the bench at another program.

In Baton Rouge, however, the starting quarterback job wasn’t necessarily going to be promised to Burrow, which meant the Tigers had to work hard to convince the young quarterback to come to LSU.

Not only did Burrow want some clarity on the starting job at LSU (he’d be competing with Myles Brennan, Justin McMillan, and Lowell Narcisse), but he also wanted to know that Coach O planned on passing the ball more than the Tigers had in 2017.

Near the end of an intense recruiting visit, which is wonderfully chronicled by The Advocate in an excerpt from Jeffrey Marx’s “Walking with Tigers: A Collection of LSU Sports Stories”, Coach O took Burrow aside and got extremely candid.

Orgeron knew that he had to win in 2018 after going 9-4 (with a loss to Troy at home) in 2017. He was betting on Burrow and he wanted the future Heisman Trophy winner to know that.

According to Marx, Coach O, in a roundabout way, told Burrow that he was better than the quarterbacks on LSU’s roster. Orgeron didn’t promise Burrow the starting job that day. Instead, Orgeron told Burrow that he knew how the quarterback battle would play out. Coach O knew Burrow would win it.

Orgeron essentially told Burrow that day that he was the missing piece for LSU.

Burrow, who according to Marx wasn’t nearly as confident as he is now, found a renewed sense of belief in himself after the conversation with Orgeron.

“It felt like he was going all-in on me. And I hadn’t felt something like that from a coach in a long time”, said Burrow to Marx.

Oddly enough, after the conversation, Coach O was certain that Burrow wasn’t coming to LSU.

A week after the visit to Baton Rogue, after a lot of thought and reflection, Burrow called Orgeron to tell him he was going to play for the Tigers.

Burrow believed he could be a champion at LSU. He believed in the vision that Coach O had for him — which stemmed from that candid conversation."

https://deathvalleyvoice.com/2020/04/20/lsu-football-ed-orgeron-convinced-joe-burrow-come-baton-rouge/

----------------------

What was important to Joe in making the decision to come to LSU?  The nature of the QB competition, and the nature of the passing attack he would play in.  Bill Busch could do EXACTLY NOTHING for Joe on the most important questions Joe had about coming to LSU.  Ed did it, and that is why Joe only thanked one man on his Heisman stage, Ed Orgeron.  Ed is primarily responsible for Joe coming here, and Joe said so in his interview with the Advocate.  You may not like that, but there it is.

Edited September 11, 2023 by houtiger

[Fishhead]

I don't care what some journalist wrote.  O was NOT the catalyst getting Burrow to LSU lol.  O promised him a chance to win the starting job.  Well no shyte, we didn't have a better option.  O was going "all in" on Burrow because he had to.   And if he promised Joe we were going to pass the ball more than in 2017, well he lied.  We didn't transform the offense until 2019.  I'll give O credit for going with Joe Brady long before I give him credit for being the catalyst in Burrow coming to LSU.  He got lucky with that, and the luck was having Bill Busch on staff.

[houtiger]

6 minutes ago, Fishhead said:

I don't care what some journalist wrote.  O was NOT the catalyst getting Burrow to LSU lol.  O promised him a chance to win the starting job.  Well no shyte, we didn't have a better option.  O was going "all in" on Burrow because he had to.   And if he promised Joe we were going to pass the ball more than in 2017, well he lied.  We didn't transform the offense until 2019.  I'll give O credit for going with Joe Brady long before I give him credit for being the catalyst in Burrow coming to LSU.  He got lucky with that, and the luck was having Bill Busch on staff.

The journalist interviewed Joe for the piece and is relating what Joe told him.  Yes, Busch friendship with the Burrow family helped some initially, but Busch could not answer Joe's questions about the QB competition or the offense.  Ed did it.  Did he have to?  Did Saban need Tua Tagavaloa?  Sure, they all say what they think they need to say to get a kid there.  That's recruiting.  Ed recruited Joe to LSU, and Ed is the only person Joe thanked on the Heisman stage.  Busch was not sitting by Joe's Dad, family friend or not.

Again, that is all ancient history.

The question is, how long should it take Kelly to build LSU back into a sound program?

Edited September 11, 2023 by houtiger

[Fishhead]

3-4 years, but I do understand Nootch's question about what a sound program is.  

Next season, if LSU is in the top 12, they're a playoff team.  The whole CFB world is different by leaps and bounds than it was just a short few years ago, and it'll be hard to measure.  But IMO at that point, LSU should be consistently in the "playoffs".  Not saying every year or fire the bum, but it should absolutely be the expectation with the amount of resources (and HC salary) LSU has.  

 

Also, Ed O sucked and should've never been hired.

[Nutriaitch]

ok, give Ed 1 billion percent credit for Burrow. 

that’s still not the question you keep tap dancing around. 

2015 LSU went 9-3 (McNeese game was cancelled or would have been 10 wins) with loses to Alabama, a 10 win Ole Miss and an 8 win Arkansas. 

offense finished in the top 3rd of the country. 

everyone wanted him tatted and feathered. because his offense was “moribund” 

2018 LSU went 10-3 with losses to Alabama, a 10 win Florida team and a 8 win A&M team. 

offense finished in bottom 3rd of the country. went entire month of October and first half of November throwing ONE touchdown pass. and it was caught by a guy in a Florida uniform.

got an extension and a raise for “improving” the offense. 

and no, he doesn’t get to take credit for 2019 Burrow while getting his 2018 raise  

 

i want to know which of the above 2 standards are we going to hold Brian Kelly.

because they are almost polar opposites of each other.

 pick one. 

 

[Fishhead]

10 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

ok, give Ed 1 billion percent credit for Burrow. 

that’s still not the question you keep tap dancing around. 

2015 LSU went 9-3 (McNeese game was cancelled or would have been 10 wins) with loses to Alabama, a 10 win Ole Miss and an 8 win Arkansas. 

offense finished in the top 3rd of the country. 

everyone wanted him tatted and feathered. because his offense was “moribund” 

2018 LSU went 10-3 with losses to Alabama, a 10 win Florida team and a 8 win A&M team. 

offense finished in bottom 3rd of the country. went entire month of October and first half of November throwing ONE touchdown pass. and it was caught by a guy in a Florida uniform.

got an extension and a raise for “improving” the offense. 

and no, he doesn’t get to take credit for 2019 Burrow while getting his 2018 raise  

 

i want to know which of the above 2 standards are we going to hold Brian Kelly.

because they are almost polar opposites of each other.

 pick one. 

 

Dude just pick your own standard and apply it to Kelly, which is the subject of the thread.  This is why you're no longer allowed to mention 1990s LSU trivia in podcasts lol.  

[Fishhead]

I've said before Nootch missed his calling as a lawyer.  Maybe it's a history teacher?  IDK

[Nutriaitch]

8 hours ago, Fishhead said:

I've said before Nootch missed his calling as a lawyer.  

I know you'll find this hard to believe, but the reason I don't have a degree is because I couldn't pass English 101.

[Nutriaitch]

8 hours ago, Fishhead said:

Dude just pick your own standard and apply it to Kelly, which is the subject of the thread.  This is why you're no longer allowed to mention 1990s LSU trivia in podcasts lol.  

ok, mid November we have to be in contention for a spot in the SEC CG.
every year.
be in the SEC CG at a minimum of once every 3 years.
win it once every 4. minimum.

I need to see how the new shitastic playoff format plays out a couple times before I can truly say anything about that.
sure it's easy to say "well with 12, we should be in all the time", but we all know that some years we'll be inside the top 10 and get left out because St. Mary Francis' School for the Dwarves has to get in to fill a spot.
 

[dachsie]

9 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

ok, give Ed 1 billion percent credit for Burrow. 

that’s still not the question you keep tap dancing around. 

2015 LSU went 9-3 (McNeese game was cancelled or would have been 10 wins) with loses to Alabama, a 10 win Ole Miss and an 8 win Arkansas. 

offense finished in the top 3rd of the country. 

everyone wanted him tatted and feathered. because his offense was “moribund” 

2018 LSU went 10-3 with losses to Alabama, a 10 win Florida team and a 8 win A&M team. 

offense finished in bottom 3rd of the country. went entire month of October and first half of November throwing ONE touchdown pass. and it was caught by a guy in a Florida uniform.

got an extension and a raise for “improving” the offense. 

and no, he doesn’t get to take credit for 2019 Burrow while getting his 2018 raise  

 

i want to know which of the above 2 standards are we going to hold Brian Kelly.

because they are almost polar opposites of each other.

 pick one. 

 

Why does it have to be either/or?  Why not pick a new standard?

[Nutriaitch]

58 minutes ago, dachsie said:

Why does it have to be either/or?  Why not pick a new standard?

i don’t care what standard it is. 

i just want to know ahead of time what that standard is. 

[Fishhead]

12 minutes ago, Nutriaitch said:

i don’t care what standard it is. 

i just want to know ahead of time what that standard is. 

You just figured it out.  Go with that one and answer the damn question lol

[Nutriaitch]

3 minutes ago, Fishhead said:

You just figured it out.  Go with that one and answer the damn question lol

I did.

 

on page 1

 

14 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

he did that year 1, and until he loses a West game (which the division looks winnable again) he's on pace to do it again this year

so he's already right where you're asking how long he gets?

the rest of this is trying to find where other people's standards are set.
 

 

[houtiger]

12 hours ago, Nutriaitch said:

i don’t care what standard it is. 

i just want to know ahead of time what that standard is. 

I will guarantee you the standard is not 9-3.  That is an oversimplification and your obsession with 9-3 is misguided.

Miles was not fired because he went 9-3 in 2015.  He was fired because of this: 13-1, 10-3, 10-3, 8-5, 9-3, 2-2, and the fact that his run heavy offense worked against weak teams, but failed against strong teams that could match LSU physically.  Because LSU had a run heavy orientation they could not attract a top passing QB.  When strong teams stopped the LSU run game, we were dead meat because we could not run, nor could we pass.  To boot, Miles lied to Alleva about changing the offense for 2016, and went 2-2 his first 4 games.  This is the bottom line.  The program was headed in the wrong direction, from perennial SEC West contenders to also rans.  That is why Miles was fired.

The standard is not a particular record.  The standard is about being a regular contender for titles, and when you don't, having a reasonable expectation that the coach knows enough to know what to change to get the team back to contender status.  Miles needed to go, it was a good termination.

Now let's look at O.

8-4 (Ed was 6-2 interim), 9-4, 10-3, 15-0, 5-5, 6-6.  Ed improved every year up to 2019.  His recruiting classes were highly ranked and it looked like his players played hard for him and people thought Ed was a good motivator.  Then he screwed up in 2020.  He had lost a lot of talent off the 2019 team, but his hire of Pelini as DC was terrible and he was released after 1 year.  The program lurched to the wrong direction and Ed's attempt to fix the 2020 debacle failed in 2021.  I think he could not hire great coordinators because they could smell death in the LSU program and did not want to move to BR for what likely was a one year gig.  O was fired midseason in 2021 because the program was moving in the wrong direction and the AD had no faith in Ed to get it back on track.

I don't think the STANDARD is a particular record.  I think LSU wants a sound program that is capable of contending for a championship of the SEC most years, and where the head coach is capable of keeping the program moving in a positive direction, so if the team has a poor year you believe the coach knows what went wrong and is capable of taking the necessary actions to get the program moving back to contender status.

I think Kelly meets the criteria above so far.

My question originally had nothing to do with criteria for firing a coach, but since you brought it up, I have stated my criteria.

My question was how long should we reasonably expect it to take for Kelly to rebuild LSU into a sound program.

 

[LSUDad]

41 minutes ago, houtiger said:

I will guarantee you the standard is not 9-3.  That is an oversimplification and your obsession with 9-3 is misguided.

Miles was not fired because he went 9-3 in 2015.  He was fired because of this: 13-1, 10-3, 10-3, 8-5, 9-3, 2-2, and the fact that his run heavy offense worked against weak teams, but failed against strong teams that could match LSU physically.  Because LSU had a run heavy orientation they could not attract a top passing QB.  When strong teams stopped the LSU run game, we were dead meat because we could not run, nor could we pass.  To boot, Miles lied to Alleva about changing the offense for 2016, and went 2-2 his first 4 games.  This is the bottom line.  The program was headed in the wrong direction, from perennial SEC West contenders to also rans.  That is why Miles was fired.

The standard is not a particular record.  The standard is about being a regular contender for titles, and when you don't, having a reasonable expectation that the coach knows enough to know what to change to get the team back to contender status.  Miles needed to go, it was a good termination.

Now let's look at O.

8-4 (Ed was 6-2 interim), 9-4, 10-3, 15-0, 5-5, 6-6.  Ed improved every year up to 2019.  His recruiting classes were highly ranked and it looked like his players played hard for him and people thought Ed was a good motivator.  Then he screwed up in 2020.  He had lost a lot of talent off the 2019 team, but his hire of Pelini as DC was terrible and he was released after 1 year.  The program lurched to the wrong direction and Ed's attempt to fix the 2020 debacle failed in 2021.  I think he could not hire great coordinators because they could smell death in the LSU program and did not want to move to BR for what likely was a one year gig.  O was fired midseason in 2021 because the program was moving in the wrong direction and the AD had no faith in Ed to get it back on track.

I don't think the STANDARD is a particular record.  I think LSU wants a sound program that is capable of contending for a championship of the SEC most years, and where the head coach is capable of keeping the program moving in a positive direction, so if the team has a poor year you believe the coach knows what went wrong and is capable of taking the necessary actions to get the program moving back to contender status.

I think Kelly meets the criteria above so far.

My question originally had nothing to do with criteria for firing a coach, but since you brought it up, I have stated my criteria.

My question was how long should we reasonably expect it to take for Kelly to rebuild LSU into a sound program.

 

Much of O’s problems were off the field. Some schools, the off the field will get you canned. Much of the same with players. Woody wasn’t going to have O posted in social media every time he turns around. 
 

When things come out, even when it’s within the Athletic Department, the AD knows he has to make a move. Once he’s aware of something, his job is to take action. 
 

In this day and time, compile information, start moving. Unlike Joe did with the Duke Lacrosse Team, that there was a cluster. Bad hire from the start. 

[Herb]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:08 PM, Nutriaitch said:

but he got a raise and extension for it. why?

Alleva. We have Woodward now.

Big difference.

[Nutriaitch]

9 hours ago, houtiger said:

Miles needed to go, it was a good termination.

agree.

100%.
said it then, still say it now.
will say it again 15 years from now if remind me when we get there.

 

9 hours ago, houtiger said:

Now let's look at O.

8-4 (Ed was 6-2 interim),

won the games Les would have won.
Lost the games Les would have lost.
did a perfect spot on impression of Miles in the Alabama game (except Ed didn't even score).

*Note: here is where you say he didn't have time to "fix" anything before that game.  Even though you'll claim him "fixing" things is why he got the gig*
*Note2: you can also bring up Fournette breaking rushing records against Ole Miss (as if Les wouldn't have run the toss lead all game long just like O did)*

Was given a parade and a huge pat on the back. for what? or results that literally 2 months prior was not good enough for LSU.

again, the point of all of this is the double standard.
so I'm just curious which measure you are going to use to judge Kelly.

9 hours ago, houtiger said:

I don't think the STANDARD is a particular record.  I think LSU wants a sound program that is capable of contending for a championship of the SEC most years, and where the head coach is capable of keeping the program moving in a positive direction, so if the team has a poor year you believe the coach knows what went wrong and is capable of taking the necessary actions to get the program moving back to contender status.

ok, so we're back to the Pre-O standard?

I'm good with it.
That's where we should have been all along. 

thank you for answering my question.